PRIME CARNERA V PRIME BRUNO?

Why would he not Maloney had a weak chin and he would have outweighed Stribling by about 40lbs! I saw over 30 Bruno fights from ringside I know his strengths and his weaknesses and he would not lose to Carnera!

 

Witherspoon was heavier when he beat Carl Williams for the USBA title .
Carnera was 250lbs for Schaaf, 3 months later he was 10.5lb s heavier when he beat Sharkey for which fight was he fitter ?

 

he lost whenever he stepped up except to the crack head from a home town decision. Mike II was a cash out because he knew he couldn't risk a defence against a guy like a Morrison or Mercer.

 

It wouldn't have been and the above only highlights the pointlessness in trying to make such a paper-based, cross-era comparison. Moreover, it has absolutely no bearing on this fantasy head-to-head match.

Unfortunately, you are failing to recognize your contradiction. You have stated the following:

"[Bruno] generally lost when he fought at world level"

"Carnera was consistently beating world class opposition, while Bruno was consistently losing to them"

When you make such assertions, you are, by default, forming a parity in the definition of "world class" / "world level", between the eras in question.

Let me rephrase. It is quite reasonable to believe Witherspoon, with both his record and what we can see of him on film, would have beaten Carnera with ease.

What was his best weight? Witherspoon's weight fluctuated. I can't see this being an reliable indicator of his condition. Especially, when we read what Witherspoon himself has to say on the matter.

I have watched the Witherspoon/Bruno fight countless times. This and knowing the state of Witherspoon's relationship with Don King, as well as being quite content with Witherspoon's own words, are enough for me to know that I will not agree with you on your perspective on Witherspoon's poor condition.

As far as I see it, Witherspoon was motivated to win a fight against a dangerous opponent, in Bruno.

 

I tend to agree. The close loss to Tucker woke McCall up a bit and, for a while, he became focused.

This period saw him do most of his best work and collect his biggest accolades. He was never going to be a technician extraordinaire, but he was an immovable object, with a very solid right-hand (Primo's nemesis).

But, you didn't necessarily need to be an elite skillster to beat Primo. An aggressive, big puncher, who was able to resist Carnera's man-handling up close, would be enough, in my view.

 

If he would be such a lock to beat these guys, you have to ask why he was steered clear of such fighters in his own era.

He lost to guys like Smith, Witherspoon, and Lewis, and sometimes looked very impressive doing it, but then he would go back to fighting cans again, until he could secure a major fight.

Doesn’t this suggest that his handlers thought that the Stribling Maloney category of contender had the potential to derail their cash cow?

 

I couldn't agree more. Some people seem to forget the pace of that fight and how hard fought it was.

 

The burden of proof lies with the person asserting something.

You assume the burden of proof if you say that the 80s were stronger than the 30s like for like.

I assume the burden of proof if I say that they were equal like for like.

I do not assume the burden of proof if I say that I don't know which was stronger, and provisionally compare them as if they were equal.

It is reasonable to believe that Witherspoon would beat Carnera, but it is not reasonable to assume that Witherspoon would beat Carnera.

Crucial difference.

I guess that we are going to have to agree to differ on this.

 

I think that pride spurred Witherspoon on to win the fight, but I also think that he was starting to become disillusioned at this point.

He increasingly saw that he was not going to get fair treatment from Don King, and as a result his work ethic started to suffer, and he was increasingly turning up just for pay days.

That is my take.

 

LOL - Good grief.

You're the only poster who has made an assertion, comparing the two eras, in terms of "world level" / "world class". I have not.

But, you somehow lay the burden of proof at my door? Get real!

I'll say again - You have stated the following:

"[Bruno] generally lost when he fought at world level"

"Carnera was consistently beating world class opposition, while Bruno was consistently losing to them"

When you make such assertions, you are, BY DEFAULT, forming a parity in the definition of "world class" / "world level", between the eras in question.

LOL - "believe"? "assume"? I could use either and only your pedantry would make a distinction.

Crucial difference? I think not. More like immaterial nitpicking of absolutely no consequence.

Of course. Because, as always, you choose to ignore primary source evidence (from the horse's mouth, this time, no less), when it doesn't fit with your perspective.

Each time you do this, your credibility is damaged, in much the same way anything would suffer, due to being repeatedly flushed down the toilet and out to sea.

I would strongly advise you to watch the fight again. Then, honestly ask yourself if Witherspoon looked as if he'd come into the fight with losing in mind.

 

What I am doing is comparing them based on the only known variable i.e. how they both performed relative to their respective eras.

Once you start speculating which era is stronger, you are comparing them based on an unknowable variable.

Given that the 80s was never regarded as being a particularly strong era, you would not want to hang much on the assumption that it was stronger than another era!

The difference is absolutely crucial.

You might speculate that Tim Witherspoon could have beaten Primo Carnera, but you have to acknowledge that this speculation might turn out to be completely misguided.

Like me, I am sure that you have been wrong in your fight predictions before.

I know that Witherspoon was overweight, and not at his best.

This was commented upon at the time, as was the lacklustre nature of the fight.

As for your primary source evidence, this is Witherspoon commenting on Witherspoon.

Perhaps he even believed what he was saying himself, but the reality is that he was about to get snotted in his next fight.

This is basically how athletes often decline.

They become less conscientious in their preparations, and tell themselves that they are just as they were before.
They get away with it up to a point, then boom!