Prime Charles vs Prime Liston

Wow you rate Sonny high, I disagree. I can not get past the 2 quit jobs with Ali. Sonny had the best mean look but I do not like his performance when the going got rough and that is a test that fighters eventually have face. Sonny failed that test for me. I dont see him getting past the top shelf heavyweights if they get past his facade, although not a simple task. Once the fear factor was eliminated....Sonny started to unfold. Tyson suffered from the same dilemma. Some opponents may never make it to that point but the strong-willed and heart fighters would have a good chances of bringing Sonny to the point of his reversal of mind-set.

2 quits for one fighter are a factor for me.

 

I'll have to disagree with you right at the core here. There's a lot going on we can never ever be sure of. I believe Ali beat him fair and square in fight one and a panel of doctors from memory all supported the shoulder claim. I would stake thousands down that he was simply cuffed second fight. If i am right, well it'd be better to quit than have your family blowtorched/etc i'd guess. Lots of mystery of course.

Losing to Ali twice is pretty acceptable regardless. Ezzard Charles is never ever going to put on the psychogical or physical pressure Ali did.

I do rate Sonny high. H2H he'd be close to top 5 for me. I think he'd go thru Frazier and Marciano handily among others.

 

I have a little trouble believing the black Muslim claim threat claim especially being that Sonny had ties to the Italian mob who were the stronger criminal group and had no fear of street warfare. They would have given Sonny backing unless a deal was made.

As far as the shoulder injury, as long as you know the symptoms, no doctor can tell you that you lack an injury if you complain about pain.

As far as Frazier in prime and Marciano, they are exactly the type of fearless fighters that would bring out the streak in Liston( that he showed in the 2 Ali fights.) It took a courageous Evander to do it to Tyson to my surprise

 

neither did marty marshal and leotis martin. They didnt have to be muhhamad ali to beat liston. they were tough and no bigger than charles.

smaller guys like bennie thomas SD'd liston, whithurst gave a peak liston 2dificult fights. styles make fights but i dont think they would have botherd charles.

 

Liston only lost to Marshall before fighting Ali, and that was before he was developed. For people like me, it's so easy to remember Liston by those losses. It's very easy to associate his legacy with the fight against Ali.

But, the reality is, Sonny Liston was one of the most dominate and feared Champions in all boxing history. Before he lost to Ali, he was looked at like a God of boxing. A machine, a terminator. And it wasn't only his size and looks that made people see him that way. He was a complete destroyer in the ring. I take my hats off to anyone whoever dared to fight the man. Sonny's combination of raw power, and skillful techniques, bred one of the most devastating boxers to ever grace the sport.

Sonny's legacy was tarnished as soon as he lost the second fight to Ali. People did not like Ali very much, and for Ali to totally decimate Liston like that, naturally people thought Liston was just a chump. At the time, I don't think most fans realized what Ali had to go through in the first fight to defeat Liston.

You see, Ali defeating Liston did not propel Ali in peoples minds. More so, it dissolved any respect/fear for Liston they once had.


And I think that mentality still sticks with us today.

Ezzard Charles is one of my favorite fighters, but him defeating a prime Liston? Not placing my money on that outcome anytime soon....

 

H2H Liston is psyichally stronger then Charles. those who are talking about his losses, he was either green or past his prime when he lost. I don't think Liston has really bad heart, he fought marshall with a broken jaw, and stood up to clevland william's bombs twice.
Charles is not a mover or a boxer like Ali, he just doesn't have all of ali's skill and he would grt walked down by Liston. listons skill was underrated too. he had a fine jab and he could slip shots when he needed to. he was a scientifically sound heavyweight. I don't think Charles could ever take Liston toe to toe and that's exactly the kind of fight Liston wants. Liston would destroy Charles within 8 rounds. he could stand toe to toe with Liston and get beat up, or try to stay away and get nailed by his jab.

 

I've seem the Machen fight at least half a dozn times on Classic and all it shows me is that Liston had no trouble fighting a brisk 12 rounds against a safety first opponent with a rock chin. Sonny easily and clearly won the fight. It was not close. So much is made of it because at that time Liston was destroying everyone he fought in a decisive manner.

Liston has been forever plagued by the Ali fights and he should. However, he was an old man fighting the best man ever at the worst style match up for him. Charles was not Ali. He was much smaller. His reach was much shorter. He was not as fast with hand or foot and he was much more hittable. I'm not saying it is an easy fight as Ez was talented and had a huge heart but I simply think Sonny at heavyweight was too good.

 

I think that Charles is just a stylistic nightmare for anybody.

Liston probably wins but it is not a given.

 

I think it's hard to predict this fight. I could envision Charles winning rounds with relatively ease and Liston getting frustrated and even stunned along the way, but it's hard to keep that up for 15 rounds against a powerful man.

Machen's probably was that he was basically a one-handed fighter. I can't remember him doing anything with the right hand, at all. Charles will go to war. I'm not sure if he survives, but Liston would have to be at his absolute best to get the win. Watch Marciano vs Charles to see how tough he is.

 

very good post. people dont remember how crucial it is what people thought/ accepted at that time. i dont agree regarding chares chances against liston but i respect your view.

 

i could not agree more. machen was nothing more than a brave pest looking to last the distance.

you did not have to be ali to trouble liston. you just had to be a tough contender of fair ability who wanted to win to test him. all the guys liston knocked out had been knocked out before. patterson, williams, valdes, foley etc. in his entire career he never beat an unbeaten oponet. yet tough defiant guys pestered him. whithurst was KOd by old archie moore twice yet he went 20 pesky rounds with liston.

there is an obsesion that only ali would beat him. its wrong. whatch more fights and read about marshal and what he did.

liston had the kind of talent and size that bypassed the disadvantage of miles on the clock against fair competition. he was easing along as before. Liston went unbeaten and registered comparable wins against comon oponents with even the next generation of contenders after the ali fights.

frazier or quarry or young foreman did not want him. leotis martin did. martin still beat a contender in liston who was still formidable. formidable enough that frazier, bonavena, quarry, ellis who had all given liston a wide birth.

how many taxing, competative fights had liston had pre ali? how many taxing fights had liston had post ali? we all know about wear and tear but against guys where you have all the ace cards and physical advantages where is the wear and tear?

the botom line with listoin is the guy had so much talent he never learned to win a competative fight. charles would have been a competative fight.

 

My contrary view is that they are the type of fighters to come at Liston and allow him to find them easily. They'd force it actually. Liston is if anything an underrated boxer. Joe's courage didn't get him anywhere vs foreman and i don't believe it would vs Liston. Ali is so different to those two it ain't funny, and even then we have the clouded issues vs Ali.

 

On the other hand, we dont have much to gauge Liston of off in regards to how he'd actually cope with a Frazier or Marciano.
I mean, he took Patterson apart, but Patterson was a bit chinny, and a bit frail, and by his own admission he was frightened to death and not confident of victory.

Bert Whitehurst, a nobody, actually thought he had his best success in 20 rounds with Liston when he crowded his way inside.
Zora Folley brought the fight to Liston and wobbled him a bit from the reports. Howard King, another nobody, knocked Liston across the ring.

Liston was confident he could beat Frazier in 1968, "it would be like shooting fish in a barrel" he said, but it's not known how Liston would come with such pressure from such a determined and hard-hitting foe.
Foreman literally had to push Frazier off him to keep him away, with both hands. And he got away with it. Maybe Liston does the same, or maybe he tries work inside and holding and hitting(like he did Patterson) and gets hooked to death by Frazier.