Prime Dempsey v Prime Tunney?

Who exactly did Tunney prove this toughness against as a heavyweight ? Not the feather fisted Greb .. seriously .. it's not only a matter of Dempsey's stamina but his speed .. I think he was simply better .. Tunney was a hell of a white light heavyweight ( yes I know, there were no talented black fighters for him to ever fight in his whole career ) but I like Jack prime for prime to hurt him and make it a very different type of survival fight ..

 

burt bienstock...

From Feb 1918
Jim Flynn-ko1
WHO HAD GONE 2-6 IN HIS PREVIOUS 8 FIGHTS, KO'D BY DILLON, FULTON, COFFEY, SMITH, MCCARTY, KAUFMAN.. HE HAD BEEN DOWN MORE TIMES THAN A SUNDAY HOOKER
Fred Fulton-ko1 A VERY GOOD WIN.
Battling Levinsky ko 1 A GOOD WIN THAT GREB HAD ALREADY PULLED THREE TIMES.
Gunboat Smith Ko 2 WHO HAD WON ONCE IN HIS PREVIOUS 12 FIGHTS.
Jess Willard Ko 3 DOMINANT PERFORMANCE OVER THE CHAMP... ALBEIT ONE WHO HAD ONLY FOUGHT ONCE IN FOUR YEARS.
Billy Miske Ko 3 SO SICK HE COULD BARELY EVEN GIVE THE IMPRESSION HE WAS TRAINING. SEE: CLAY MOYLE'S BOOK ON MISKE.
Bill Brennan Ko 12 GREB HAD BEATEN BRENNAN FOUR TIMES. BRENNAN WAS GETTING THE UPPERHAND IN THIS ONE.
Georges Carpentier Ko 4 WHO HAD CARPENTIER BEATEN AT HEAVYWEIGHT? WHY ARE WE SUPPOSED TO BE IMPRESSED?
Tommy Gibbons --Won decisive 15 rd decision HOMECOOKING JIM DOUGHERTY CERTAINLY DIDN'T HURT BUT GOOD WIN OVER THE FOURTH BEST HEAVYWEIGHT IN THE WORLD.
Luis Angel Firpo -Ko 2 September 1923 A FABRICATION. WHO WERE THE FOUR BEST HEAVIES HE BEAT? HOW ABOUT THE BEST HEAVY UNDER 40 YEARS OLD?

 

There's truth to what I said Janitor and you very well know it. I never said whether anything was a lot or a little.. just simply that it existed.

 

He beat Greb multiple times, the same Greb who had beaten almost all of Dempsey's challengers ( Carpentier wouldn't even sit in the same arena as Greb let alone get in the ring with him), the same Greb who schooled Jack in sparring and who Jack actively avoided. He also retired Gibbons by KO, a trick Dempsey couldn't pull, not even with all the low blows in Montana.

 

Jack Dempsey was a great puncher yes? His best punch was his left hook. The punch is the last thing to go in a fighter, so its been said. I see people arguing that it was Dempseys legs not his punch that had gone back on him against Tunney. Well, in the midst of a series of punches, with Tunney already hurt, Dempsey landed his best punch square on Tunneys jaw with his head pinned on the top rope so he couldnt roll with it and Tunney not only got up but within seconds was back to outboxing jack. No cream puff is going to do that. Against Greb Tunney took a hellacious beating and spent two weeks afterwards in bed yet came back to fight the guy 4 more times. Only a tough guy mentally and physically could or would do that. I dont deny that Tunney was protected but that doesnt change that he was a great fighter and a very tough guy.

 

So Dempsey couldn't take Greb's power either along w Carpentier and Tunney ? Is that you're point ? If not, what is ?

 

Sometimes guys win the title through a thing called a "decision"…. I will google it later but I think it means one fighter wins more rounds than his opponent. I'll keep you updated on my research.

 

Right, after Tunney was down for between fourteen and eighteen seconds he was able to run away from Jack who had no legs and could not catch him.

So the beating that Greb, an true immortal but by no one's estimate any sort of puncher for a middleweight let alone a heavyweight, gave Tunney is a standard to you for Tunney's ability to take it as a heavyweight ? How would you say it matches up to the hundred flush right hands Schmeling landed on Louis in the first fight or the pounding Frazier gave Ali in their first bout ? Comparable ?

I say that far and away the toughest guy he ever fought was the shell of Dempsey and a shell is what he fought. No legs, poor stamina, shot reflexes and diminished power and hand speed .. there is absolutely nothing else to gage how tough Tunney was at light heavyweight let alone heavyweight .. funny but Carpentier may have given him one of his toughest bouts .. putting aside the decision he lost to Loughran he was gifted ..

 

And just to make my position clear, I think that prime for prime this is still a close fight, a very close, almost pick-em fight.

But I would put my money on Tunney.

 

I'm surprised it hasn't been discussed under which rules the fight would take place, I think that's a huge issue. I guess it's assumed to be under the pre Tunney-Dempsey rules.

 

The power might be the last thing to go but you have to be in position both to unleash the power and then have the legs to follow up on it if your opponent tries to buy time. Similar to a lot of sports, legs play a huge rule when it comes to generating power.

And what about the opinion of the experts and peers, most of who would pick Dempsey, have we replaced them?

 

He was down for 14 seconds (Jack can blame himself for that, old habits of trying to take unfair advantage over fallen fighters die hard) but he was clear eyed and looking at the ref well before 10 seconds had elapsed. Funny, I saw Dempsey chasing, not limping or wheeling after Tunney in a wheelchair, Did he look slow to you? Was he ever so fleet of foot that he was considered a dancing master? No. He just never faced anyone who had legs like Tunney. Not Carp, not Miske, not Gibbons, and certainly not Firpo, Willard, Fulton, or Brennan. Its usually the guy who has been knocked down and groggy who complains about having no legs. Somehow Tunney gets clipped with Dempsey's best punch (a punch which supposed lasted well into old age, even by Dempsey's admission) in a manner which left him taking the full impact and yet upon arising its Dempsey who is the one at a disadvantage??

Considering Greb beat the hell out of a fair amount of HWs including having guys like Norfolk (who Dempsey wouldnt go near) and Brennan (who gave Dempsey all kinds of problems) and had them going at the end of their fights Id say this cream puff puncher was not someone you wanted to be on the receiving end of a beating from regardless of weight. He hit hard enough to drop Weinert (who Dempsey tried to defend against) so hard that he didnt know where he was until the fight was practically over. He hit hard enough to drop Jack Renault who beat George Godfrey and was a favored sparring partner of Dempsey. He hit hard enough to drop iron chinned Bartley Madden (who Dempsey wanted to defend against). He often brutalized these guys in the process. And frankly, how many Schmeling right hands did Dempsey ever take? How many Frazier left hooks did Dempsey ever take? You want to argue that Tunney was protected, and he was, but so was Dempsey. Its not like Dempsey was going out of his way to challenge himself. Ive always said on here that the opponent has a lot to do with how a guy looks in the ring. Is it really a coincidence that you pick Dempsey's prime as the fight where he was fighting an overmatched LHW, not known for his durability???


If Tunney won a gift over Loughran then why did Loughran cry immediately after the fight and say: "The weight was too much for me. I did not put up the bout of which I am capable, but I have no alibis. After being knocked down in the first round I just could not get started. It really was not until near the end of the seventh that I found I was myself." That doesnt sound like a guy who thinks he won the bout. And Carpentier gave Tunney one of his hardest fights? Tunney laid an ungodly beating on Carpentier. Most reports for that fight give Carpentier 2 or 3 rounds out of the 14 completed. I have the entire fight on film and Id say thats more than fair. Tunney checked every move Carpentier made and whipped him to a frazzle, in fact the referee tried to stop the fight at one point. Carpentier showed heart but that was about it. Maybe outside of the Greb bouts it was one of Tunney's toughest fights but that says a lot about how easily he beat the opponents he was up against, Dempsey included.

 

The significantly better speed & reflexes alone would favor Dempsey.

The one comment above I differ with is that "very few" would favor prime Marciano over Louis.

No, many do. Louis himself would not pick an outcome, & hated swarmers.

Rocky improved like most fighters after he won the title, perfecting his crouching style.

Louis was clearly better overall & against all comers.
I do not know if he beats the very greatest swarmers that he is better than overall though. Frazier, Rocky, & Tyson (not strictly a warmer I know).

I do tend to pick him over Dempsey. Enough of a skills & endurance gap.

 

:happy I thought I was the only person who thought that!? :good. I think Carp gave Tunney a real fight - and that was a past his best Carp - I think a prime Carp of the Dempsey fight couldve REALLY given him a run for his money - Carp is massively under rated these days - he was faster than Tunney and a much more explosive hitter and he was a feisty MF aswell - Tunney was a great boxer but he got Carp when his best days were behind him and he also got Gibbons when he was way past his best aswell - and Dempsey when he was shot - I think the young in shape Carp with his vaunted right hand gives Tunney all kinds of trouble - he gave him a better fight than anyone else on film when he was past it IMO. Tunney always relied on being the better boxer in there but I think Carp's skills match his and his reflexes are possibly even better

 

This is a completely bias statement. If the rules are in place allowing for this then how can it be unfair when both fighters are allowed to do it?

Comments like this completely invalidate your argument.