Prime Evander Holyfield vs Holmes Title Opponents

Holyfield had a great left hook with plenty of power in it.

 

Plucking out the odd tough time or even tough moment is shallow at best. Holyfield won every round bar one on two of the judges cards and was only in trouble for a brief period of the fight before coming back strongly like warriors often do. Holmes to was heavily dropped against Snipes (and Shavers) and in big trouble vs Weaver and Witherspoon. He too also came back strongly. Both have undoubted championship heart.

Williams was a fine boxer but against top guys that chin was a liability.

Lets not forget Holyfield was supposed to be fighting Mike Tyson for $30mil. Then he was supposed to be fighting Damiani. So Cooper was actually a substitute for a substitute.

Cooper could definitely whack.

 

Yet cooper did not bother Williams did he? Not as much as he bothered Evander and Mercer.

In his prime (when Larry fought him) Williams would have been a handful for any great fighter. Yes weaver and Tyson knocked him out early but nobody else did. He took Witherspoon to a SD, took Holmes to a SD. beat Berbick and effectively destroyed Bert Cooper.

Evander went life and death with a faded Mike Dokes who was no real opposition to Bowe or Ruddock at that time. Alex Stewart didn’t bother great fighters either. Vaughn Bean, bobby Cyz. Old man Larry, old man George... these fights were not that impressive. And he lost to Moorer.

Evander was a resilient guy though. He deserves to be remembered as an exciting champion rather than a dominant one. He could lose fights and come back to win a rematch. So It’s not that great for a fighter to have beaten Evander since he was a bit hot and cold. Regardless of how high folks rate Bowe and Lewis the fact a guy who lost to Moorer and went life and death with old men like Larry and George should also put those two into perspective. But it dosnt. Lewis was dominant and Bowe meets a SHW criteria within the internet generation so those two get a pass. I’m not sure they alway should though.

 

Evander had a fair bit less trouble with Tyson than Williams did too, among others.

Cooper had only 17 fights behind him when he fought Williams. Williams only had a couple more but was FAR more progressed than Cooper with Tillis and 15 rounds with Holmes behind him. Cooper only had 10 amateur fights and had not long moved up to Heavyweight when he fought Williams. As a matter of fact after he fought Williams he moved straight back to cruiser for some time.

By the time he fought Holyfield he had a heap of fully fledged heavyweight fights behind him.

Extremely fair to say he had progressed some when he fought Mercer and Holyfield.

Williams was a good fighter for sure. He was maybe just entering his prime when Holmes fought him, he was still a bit green without a doubt.

I would not say he would be a handful for any great fighter at all. Some of them would have hammered him. Weaver was way past his best when he pole axed peak Williams for heavens sake.

Effectively destroyed Bert Cooper in what way?

One can cherry pick any great heavyweight to suit a given agenda.

Dokes is recognized as having put up a fantastic effort vs Holyfield. Such a display showed what a waste of talent he had been. He would have beat plenty of people that night.

Saying he was no real opposition to Bowe at that time is a lie because they didn't fight for another 4 years. Losing to Ruddock at the start of his streak is sure no disgrace and how much did the Holyfield war take out of Dokes at his advanced stage.

At least holyfield actually fought Dokes.

Well if he bothered Holyfield he sure did! How many ATG's would get dropped heavily by Snipes? Tony Galento? Archie Moore?

Shallow argument.

They were impressive enough. He won them. How impressive was Louis - Galento? Holmes - Snipes?

Holyfield lost to just two people in a decade. He also beat both. 14 years if you want to count cruiserweight.

The guy lost to two people in 14 years, 10 years as a heavyweight. Lets not make him out to be some sort of inconsistent winner. Bowe was also better than anyone Larry ever beat.

If you go by years post winning the title Holyfield lost 3 times over an 8 year period and Holmes twice.

As for it being not so great beating Holyfield, well that's not true. Why do you think Bowe gets so much credit.

The other thing is that Holyfield fought in a much stronger era than Larry. Bowe, Lewis, Tyson, all better than anyone in Larry's era.

To say Holyfield went life and death with Holmes and Foreman shows you absolutely dksab. No idea whatsoever.

 

if you listen to the way Gil Clancy was raving about Bert Cooper during the DeWitt fight and in the preview to the Williams fight he was making “Tyson-like” comparisons with Bert. Gil Clancy no less! He was calling cooper “a dry talented young man” and along with Tyson, cooper can be the “future of the division”. The same age as Tyson too. Clancy was sold on him. Clancy was saying the division was left with a lot inactive names who had been around a long time. And I remember that, the division had become stale around the time of the HBO tournament. Cooper was ideally placed at that time to move forward and take over.

and Weaver had ATG power. It’s like saying Shavers was past his best knocking out Norton.

Williams effectively destroyed a rising star. It was more emphatic than the way Douglas beat Tyson. Once the shorter guy resorts to standing tall and left thinking how to get inside he becomes a sitting duck.

I am sure Dokes would beat plenty of people that night. How many good ones though? What are the best HWs you think Dokes would have beaten that day?

If Snipes and Galento were able to land the same blows on other champions you don’t think they would go over?

prety impressive. I’m sure highlight reels of Louis’ best knockdowns usually include the Galento fight. Galento was the #1 contender not a late substitute. Same with Snipes. Larry looked good putting it on Renaldo. Despite the knockdown Snipes took a very one sided beating. This against the man who was not decisively beaten beyond dispute by either Witherspoon or Berbick.

people have decided this but all that makes Bowe great is beating Holyfield and the fact that he was the right size for the internet generation to decide he must have been great. In my opinion he didn’t have anymore going for him than Buster Douglas. Good fighter. Crashed and burned without fulfilling his promises.

Bowe gets credit for Holyfield. And Holyfield got credit for Bowe. On a smaller scale It’s a situation that suited Ingemar Johansson and Patterson.

This is debatable rather than factual. Larry was in Holyfeilds era as a grandfather. There were no grandfathers making an impression on the Larry Holmes era. Even Joe Frazier and Ali could not make an impression with their attempts to comeback in 1981. Joe drew with jumbo Cummings. Ali was outpointed against Berbick.

as usual this is yet another example of you becoming irrational when you disagree. As always it’s not that what I say is actually untrue or not based on an informed opinion that stands up, because it does, it’s just that you disagree.

 

Per bolded, you know context matters.

The Tyson that beat Williams was prime (true he wasn't with Rooney anymore) and his power was always going to be too much for the fragile chinned Williams.

The Tyson that lost to Holyfield was way past his prime.

That said, I agree Holyfield would stop Williams because at some point Williams would get hit with something big.
Holyfield wasn't a big puncher but he would hurt Williams at some point with a succession of power (for Holyfield) punches.

It would most likely be a late rounds stoppage in favor of Holyfield.

Also the latter part of Holmes reign was a strong era - He just didn't fight the strongest guys. But, yeah, the early to mid part was weak. The Norton win was great, though.

I would agree with others who say Holyfield was inconsistent.

Yes, he only lost to Moorer and Bowe before losing to Lennox Lewis.

But, his strategy in the Cooper and Bowe fights was borderline stupid.

He chose to war with both and was badly hurt in the Cooper and first Bowe fights.

He almost got stopped against Cooper and lost to Bowe.

To his credit, he changed his strategy for the second Bowe fight.

True, Holyfield didn't go life and death with Foreman and Holmes, but he didn't overly impress in each fight, either. They were clear UD's but both guys won some rounds.

 

I think the evidence points to the Holmes era being strong all the way through. What really hurt Holmes was his mouth and the political situation.

I would have preferred Larry fought Page, Dokes, Thomas and Coetzee to some of the other guys out there but I see why each of those fights did not happen. None of them were as big as a Cooney or Ali fight. Page lost to Berbick on the Cooney card and once page regrouped Larry was already chasing a unification with Coetzee that colloapsed many times. Dokes was tied to rematch with Weaver. Thomas hurt his eye around the same time the Holmes v Coetzee fight kept falling through. Pinklon was inactive. Then Thomas lost Berbick around the time Larry fought Michael Spinks. I think the only real threat was Thomas, I think Larry was looking for an easier retirement fight by then.

However, Larry established dominance and had already won all the key fights.

Ocasio twice beat Young when Jimmy was hot off the Foreman win and a disputed loss to Norton. Holmes destroyed Ocasio.

Shavers knocked out Norton in an eliminator. Holmes stopped him.

Leroy Jones beat Weaver and was the #1 WBC contender. Holmes stopped him.

Snipes Beat Coetzee and had disputed or close fights with Witherspoon, page and Berbick. Holmes stopped him.

Berbick beat Page. Holmes beat him.

Berbick beat Thomas. Holmes had beat him.

Bey beat Page. Holmes stopped him.

Dokes drew with Weaver who Holmes had knocked out.

Smith beat Weaver and Witherspoon who Holmes stopped.

So even though there was weak challengers like Rodriguez, zanon, Frank, Frazier those were usually fights to stay busy and some of them turned out to be much tougher fights with guys who turned out to be excellent like Witherspoon, Smith and Williams.

I think Bowe was no harder to beat than Witherspoon or Norton. Probably not much harder to beat than Williams, Weaver or Berbick.

I don’t think Moorer would beat mike Weaver, Berbick, Williams, Witherspoon, Cooney, Norton and could struggle terribly with Snipes, Cobb, Shavers and prime Smith.

 

Of course context matters, that's why i threw the junk in. It was to highlight and counter the shallowness of the argument Williams had less trouble with Cooper than Holyfield and Mercer. Directly underneath i talked more at length about the career of both up until that point. Not to mention style and other things come into fighter X beating Z but losing to Y but Y got hammered by Z.

Btw i'd absolutely back the Tyson that fought Holyfield to smash Williams again.

You and i both know this beyond a shadow of a doubt but prepare for the revisionists who have no idea of the time or simply don't want to accept it.

Larry was also close to being stopped by Renaldo Snipes and Shavers was in big trouble vs Mike Weaver. Holmes had previously pretty much shut out Shavers. These things happen over a long successful career. They all have their tough fights against opposition they are expected to handle comfortably. Louis had some bad nights out, Rocky etc.

Bowe would be better than anyone Larry beat. He would give Holmes an extremely tough fight at the very least.

These guys were both tough, experienced and proud. Both could still fight a bit too. I thought Holyfield put on quite respectable performances in seeing both off without either looking like winning.

 

I can see Holyfield winning Evangelista,Ocassio,Zanon, Jones,Ledoux,Snipes,Cobb,Rodriguez,Frank, Smith and Bey easily.
I can see a 70/30 fight against Weaver,Shavers,Berbick, Leon Spinks, Cooney, Williams.
I can see a 50/50 fight against Witherspoon and Spinks and i see Norton beating holyfield

 

On paper, he ought to win them all. In a real-world context, I don't like to give guys undue credit for more consistency in fantasy careers than they actually showed.

Evander didn't defend the heavyweight title for more than 3 wins in a row in his own career. Why would I believe he'd match one of the top 2 longevity reigns the modern sport's seen (modern, for the sake of this post, being within the last 50 years)?

Put him back 70 years where the average heavyweight challenger wasn't much (if at all) bigger than the guys he fought as a Cruiser, and you could make a case for a longer reign I could get on board with.

 

Yeah, I agree completely. Holyfield would have incurred a lot of damage and wear & against that lineup. I’d expect him to drop at least one or two fights to lesser opponents.

 

As usual you are twisting facts and telling porky pies. Clancy did not say Cooper could be "the future of the division".

Clancy was doing his job selling the fight. Cooper never became a fully fledged heavyweight until 2 years after the Williams fight. He campaigned as a cruiser straight after Williams all the way to Foreman.

What is ATG power? When people talk about Cleveland Williams and non Marciano/Louis era contenders having ATG power you scoff.

You could safely say Shavers was still in his prime when he beat Norton. Closer to it than Weaver.

Cooper wasn't a rising star, he was a hopeful. I quiver at the mention of Tyson - Douglas in the same paragraph. Trying to compare them will not make Williams win over Cooper monumental or division changing.

Who knows it's all speculation. He'd be a good show vs Carnera and comeback Joe Louis. I think he'd beat the Jimmy Bivens Louis fought and possibly all his comeback opponents prior to Marciano. All of them were 197 and under and the Dokes Evander fought would have a good shout.

Oh, i'd back him to stop Tony Galento.

Not necessarily no.

Do the highlight reels show Joe getting staggered and knocked down? The thing is almost all of them have their rough moments and their lesser performances. When people like yourself try to make mountains out of this with one fighter while ignoring it with their favorites is when i counter with what happened to others. They all have it.

As for the underlines, well it's another lie. Snipes was not in any way shape or form number 1 contender, not even close. Many didn't know who he even was.

Here's a story quote from the actual time -

Unlike Spinks, Snipes was viewed as being no threat at all to take Larry’s title or derail the big money superfight to come; the oddsmakers in Vegas didn’t even offer a betting line on the fight. The bout had one purpose: to keep Holmes active and sharp while he waited for his defense against Cooney to finally happen. It also gave Holmes a rare opportunity to compete outside of Las Vegas and in his home state of Pennsylvania.

Snipes had really done nothing to deserve his title shot. His last outing had been a ten round win over South African Gerrie Coetzee in a decision universally declared the worst anyone had seen in years. Before that he had out-pointed Eddie Mustafa Muhammad who wasn’t even a legitimate heavyweight. No one could recall the last time Snipes had impressed anyone; most couldn’t recall who he was. This would soon change.

Rubbish. You mention Bowe being great twice - who is running around calling Bowe "great"?????

Holyfield? Bowe has more on his resume than just Holyfield. The guy lost but one single fight to an ATG in a 44 fight career and was never stopped. Seven years with one loss. He has quite a reasonable win record apart from Holyfield.

The guy at his best could fight. Eddie Futch stated he thought Bowe had the potential to be the best fighter he ever had. We are talking better than Holmes, Frazier, Norton etc.

Not even close. Bowe did so much more than Johansson and Holyfield is routinely rated above Patterson on the heavyweight lists. Lets not pretend Bowe was a flash in the pan.

Not at all. With a top end consisting of Tyson, Lewis and Bowe it is factually stronger than Larry's era by a considerable degree. Two ATG's and a nearly man.

If old Holmes and Foreman were around in Holmes era they would have made an impression for sure. Absolutely you could find top 10 fighters they'd beat. Both would beat the likes of Scott Frank, Lucien Rodriguez and i dare say Tex Cobb. These are people Larry defended against. I would be surprised if Old Foreman wouldn't beat young Cooney to be quite frank.

Comparing comeback Holmes and Foreman to comeback Ali and Frazier shows again that you dksab.

Not at all. Your posts betray you as you often get facts mixed up (on purpose to suit?), don't know who fought who and when, don't know who was rated when etc etc etc.

 

to have ATG power a fighter must knockout a leading contender clean out. Shavers sparked Ellis and Norton. Weaver sparked Tate, Williams and Coetzee. Liston sparked Patterson. Ingo sparked Machen and Patterson. Cleveland Williams knocked out a lot of guys but not against leading men.

Dokes? Coetzee knocked him out. He struggled against Cobb. I don’t think there is really enough to go on to make him into anything other than what he was. A reasonable contender. For a bit. He had a belt for a time but he was a contender with a belt.

Dokes? We saw Ruddock hitting him with a left hook. Tony had a great left hook too. I don’t think it’s certain.

I never said Snipes was #1 contender, I said Galento was #1. I said Snipes was not a substitute like cooper. That’s what I meant anyway and I thought it was obvious.

like what? Beyond Holyfield, What is on Bowes resume besides the much smaller Holyfield that is above rank ordinary for any regular world class guy? Tillery? Mathis Jnr? Pierrre Coetzer? Taking an absolute shellacking from Golota? Schooled by old man Tubbs?

beyond Holyfield, I would like to see a list of what was “much more” than Ingo.

This seems outlandish. Old man Foreman beat Moorer. That’s it. He lost to Schulz, Stewart, Saverese, Morrison but he’s going to beat an undefeated Cooney that gave Holmes life and death? Old Foreman would not fight old Larry. Why is he going to beat the version of Cooney who gave Larry such trouble?

comparing comeback Frazier and comeback Ali to what Foreman and Larry were able to achieve offers a comparison of how it was more achievable for a worn old has been to make an impression on a lesser division. Hadn’t Larry had as tiring career as Frazier when he relaunched himself? Perhaps Ali was clearly too ill and should not have been allowed back into a ring. But it is interesting that there was nobody around bad enough for Frazier to beat. Where as Larry and George were able to make an impact as has beens.

 

As the analyst of a fight Cooper was participating in, it was his job to hype Cooper so viewers would stay tuned.

It doesn't man he was correct.

Tyson was much better all around than Cooper.

I remember during Holyfield/Cooper Clancy's broadcasting partner said "Imagine if Tyson was hitting Holyfield with the shots Cooper is hitting him with." Clancy responded "Imagine if Tyson was taking the shots Cooper is getting hit with? Could he take it."

Of course, Tyson wouldn't have been getting hit nearly qs much as Cooper and if he was hit, could take it. He had prooven to have as a good a chin as Cooper.

I thought the other guy made the better point - Could Holyfield take the kind of shots from Tyson he was taking from Cooper?

Anyway, Williams did put in a great performance against Cooper.

But, Tyson destroyed Williams with ease.

Cooper was basically a blown-up Cruiserweight.

Holyfield fought a dumb fight - engaging toe to toe with Cooper and it almost cost him.

Williams fought a smart fight against Cooper. He used his vast height and reach advantages to box Cooper and his chin was not really tested. Cooper had the power to hurt Williams but Williams fought in a way that mimimized the chance of his chin geting cracked.

I see Holyfield/Williams a competitive matchup.

Williams could outbox Holyfield - for stretches. But Evander was very persistent and had a pretty high work rate. I think eventually he gets inside of Williams jab and works him over. I think at some point he would nail Wiliams with a combo and hurt him. He would ruthlessly follow up until the ref stopped it.

Holyfield by late rounds tko, probably around the 10th round.