prime ezzard charles vs prime sonny liston?

Because someone wants to debunk a myth their a troll?

 

Have you read his posts?

 

Yes, and I see your point. I often find his contributions interesting and agree with them. However, there are also times that wonder if he is literally a a chocolate lab pursuing a thought or tennis ball beyond reason .

 

None of Baksi, Ray, Louis compare to a prime Sonny Liston.

Baksi was a good heavyweight. Good. Not great. He was also a mauler and brawler, not a classical stand up boxer with a jab. Baksi was also not a big puncher. He fought nothing like Liston. Liston was a two handed knockout puncher with a ramrod left jab. Baksi brought nothing to the table like that.

Ray went 1-1 with Charles. He was 36-37 years old when both fights took place. Ray was 6’2 but only 195lb and his style was that of an aggressive swarmer. Another guy who fought nothing like Liston. Since Charles lost to the 36 year old ray, I don’t even know why you bring this fight up. Charles could not establish superiority over the aging Ray.

Louis in his prime fought a lot like Liston, however this was a 36 year old far past his prime Louis coming off a 2 year layoff. Quite frankly. Louis looked awful vs Charles. He showed up overweight, he was very slow, he couldn’t release his right hand, his feet were stuck in the mud. His jab while good, was no longer great. A prime Sonny Liston was on a much much higher level and would have destroyed this version of Louis

Charles did fight a young 6’3 215lb who could punch and jab named Nino Valdes. Charles got completely manhandled and lost a clear cut unanimous decision. Charles had quite a bit of problems with Valdes size and strength.



“180-190Lb box fighters gave Liston trouble”

Funny because the only man Liston lost to near his prime was a 210lb Ali, who was bigger stronger faster and better than Charles.


Whitehurst- I don’t see how one could possibly call these fights a “struggle”. Out of the 20 rounds they fought, Liston won 19 of them on all 3 judges scorecards and whitehurst was saved by the bell in their final fight.

Machen- Liston won 9 rounds to 3 on any fair Score Card. If this is considered a major “struggle” then what do you call
Charles losing on points to H Johnson, Rex Layne, Elmer Ray, Nino Valdes, and Jersey Joe Walcott?

Marshall- yes, Liston lost to him...in his 7th pro fight. A more experienced Liston dominated him the next two times they fought. In the 2nd fight, Liston knocked him down 4x and knocked him out. In the third fight, Liston beat him 9 rounds to 0 with 1 even on the scorecards.

Martin- Liston was 37 and a shot fighter. He still was well ahead 6 rounds to 2 against Martin after 8 and he gave Martin a detached retina. Martin weighed 200lb, not 180-190lb.

So the three boxers you claim gave Liston the “most trouble” whitehurst and Machen won a combined 4 out of 32 rounds fought vs Liston. In three fights with Liston, Marshall won 6 round out of the 22 they fought.

So Machen, Whitehurst, and Marshall won a combined 10 out of 54 rounds vs Liston. How much did Liston actually struggle with these men?


If you want to see actual struggling checkout Charles fights vs

Valentino- pat was suffering from an eye injury. He trained 2 weeks for the fight yet was beating Charles 4 rounds to 3 after 7 rounds on two judges scorecards

Lee Oma- was 35 years old in his final career fight. He won 4 out of the first 6 rounds on two judges scorecards. That’s more rounds than Machen won against Liston.

Joey Maxim- Charles lost 6-7 rounds of out 15 vs Charles in first fight

Ray- 36 years old, defeated Charles in his prime

Walcott- at 37-38 years old twice beat Ezzard Charles including knocking him out with 1 punch.

Valdes- used his size and strength to wear down and beat Charles.

Layne- outswarmed and outworked Charles to win a decision

h Johnson- outjabbed Charles, won the decision


“Liston was better than a lot of men Charles beat but ezzards resume is not based on just two or so opponents like Sonnys is. I pick Charles. Late KO”

Liston was a lot better than the men Charles lost too. Bigger stronger, much harder puncher, much better jab, much tougher, much more durable.

Liston was the first of his kind. We had never before seen a big strong man jab that well, punch that hard, and box that well all at the same time.

The closest man Liston fought to Charles was the 25-26 year old Patterson. Patterson had handspeed, power, and skills like Charles except he was bigger at 195lb. Liston destroyed him twice in 1 rounds. Other A level counterpunchers Machen and Folley, either got knocked out early or badly outboxed

Charles would be outgunned here. He didn’t have enough reach or height to outbjab Liston. If he worked his way inside, he would have been manhandled by listons strength, hooks, and uppercuts. While Liston could take Charles best shot, Charles could not take listons. Charles loved to brawl, it would cost him vs Liston. Like it did Floyd

 

I have Sonny stopping Charles in around 10 .Charles was as tough and talented as they come ,at light heavy he's a great ,but up against a beast like Liston he's losing. Charles wouldn't throw the towel in at the first sign's of pain ,but I'm afraid he'd be out matched and beaten as the fight goes on. A bruised and battered Ezzard would be to brave for his own good IMO .

 

The sad part about this is Charles only gets talked about as a heavyweight these days. I’m friends with an “old man” who knew Charles personally. He said Charles was past his prime by the time he fought Louis. That Charles best fighting weight and years were 170-175lb, 1946-1948.

Yet guys like choke want us to believe Charles was still in his “prime” in 1954 when he fought Marciano because he doesn’t want Marciano to look badly for struggling with a past his prime fighter

 

Sonny by Ko

 

I think it's worth pointing out that Charles seems to have been slipping by the time of the Harold Johnson and Nino Valdes fights. I don't think he would have lost to them a few years earlier. In his prime Charles only loss was to Walcott and a highly controversial loss to Elmer Ray that many thought he won.

 

You should study up on Charles career better and read his book. Charles told friends he felt at his best under 175lb and between 1946-1948. Said he felt "faster and sharper" below 175lb. Charles said he "matured mentally and physically in the army" and came out a better fighter. Take note he got dominated in 1943 by Marshall and Bivins, and in 1946 Charles dominated both bivins and marshall. He was coming off a 3 year layoff in 1946, but in 1946 Charles was only 25 years old. Smack in the middle of his prime.

Charles was above his best fighting weight and arguably slightly past his prime when he fought Louis in 1950.

The charles we see on film vs Lloyd Marshall in 1946 is the best version of Charles. The charles who beat Moore 3x is the best version of Charles. After Charles killed Baroudi in 1948, he lost a bit of his 'killer instinct'. His book talks about all of this

 

Spot on post.