Prime Floyd Patterson vs. Prime James Toney at 190

I'm done with this guy Caelum. He just doesn't listen. Let him think what he wants. Who cares. It sickens me that he is a big liston fan like myself.

 

How about a Prime version of all of them vs. Marciano since that's what Ali wondered...and Patterson of course?

Prime Louis
vs. Marciano?
vs. Patterson?

Prime Charles
vs. Marciano?
vs. Patterson?

Prime Moore
vs. Marciano?
vs. Patterson?

Prime Walcott
vs. Marciano?
Vs. Patterson?



I still say there are questions about Marciano as well. He isn't the only one of course.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tddEUn-DKL0&feature=related[/ame]

 

I think Walcott and Moore were as close to their best as they ever were when they fought Marciano(1st time)....so I will leave them out of it. I don't think Moore could have done any better than he did in 1955. Same with heavyweight champion Walcott in 1952. Maybe the 47 walcott could have done slightly better, but not by much.


Prime Louis stops Marciano in mid rounds

Prime Charles gets stopped late/decisioned by Rocky in a fantastic fight, but I can see charles outpointing rocky once over a 3 fight period. but Rocky takes the trilogy. Charles has a good style to always trouble marciano. If someone has a 1948 charles beating rocky, I have no trouble with that. 1940s charles despite having faster speed/reflexes, i don't think he had the courage/durability of the charles of june 1954..needed to survive Marciano's late onslaught. Charles even in the 1940s had problems with swarmers(Ray and Valentino)..so I don't think anything changes.

Rocky of the early 1950s knocks floyd out in around 3-4 rounds. Much like Liston and Johansson did. Floyd would walk right into Marciano and get wrecked.






[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzV9Ve4pBk4[/ame]

Here is Ali saying Marciano is better than Joe Frazier, Says marciano hit extremely hard even as an old man.

 

I'm not so sure. It's hard for me to tell because I just haven't seen enough tape I feel of there fights when they were younger. That's why it is interesting to hear what some others say.

With Ali's words, it can be considered. Dan Florio's as well. If Florio says these old guys get tired, which tends to be the case once you reach a certain age, it can make the difference in the fight.
And there are other factors as well.

Of course, Walcott wasn't unbeatable in his prime either so Marciano should still be seen as a fighter that could beat him even then.

Moore: hard to say. Even if he was physically better when younger, he too wasn't unbeatable. Again, more tapes for me. But 38/39 is not 28/29 from a physical stand-point. Lots of changes to the body and they are not positive.

.

Your Charles analysis is interesting.

there is one thing, some throw around that he seemed to have changed somewhat after he killed Sam Baroudi, but I'm not sure how true. He did continue to KO guys. If he had that same killer instinct which some say dimmed a bit, I'll have to do some more research unless someone else knows.

I could see it being like you said but I'm not positive.

I'm not sure how this works out. Rocky has the ability to KO Patterson but Floyd's speed, accuracy, agility, and power of his own could trouble Rocky.

Charles did. Moore knocked him down. And so did Walcott.

LaStarza went the distance with Rocky in the first fight...a fight some say Roland actually won.
Ted Lowry went the distance, twice, with him as well. However, only the first one is said to have been close or won by Lowry.
The first Lowry fight would have been interesting to watch. Not the same style fighter as Floyd though. Lowry was more defensive I think it was said.

I wonder how Marciano handles Patterson's speed, accuracy, and power. And if Patterson gets him hurt, even down, I do wonder what happens. Patterson was a good finisher. And being young, maybe he could get it done.



Interesting thing is, Patterson, and maybe he got it from D'Amato which Tyson once pointed out, seems to think you should go after Marciano.

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Which can make sense actually. You stop his attack and you can stop him. If you let him attack and you just try to box, then you are allowing him to do what he wants and that energy is still going to be higher than if you were to attack him.

No matter what, if you are a pure boxer or just generally a "fighter," you have to stop him one way or the other. You have to take him out of his rhythm and control. Despite his short reach, Rocky admitted that he needed room to get off his punches.

There was an interesting post someone else did a while back on another site that I found and saved, and it had a name for the source but I haven't done anymore digging so I don't know how reliable. Anyway, it talks about one of Rocky's sparring partners...

http://cyberboxingzone.com/cbzforum/showthread.php?t=8672



There is also one other thing...remember that quote I had with Duva with saying that Rocky never wanted to fight Patterson because Patterson was quick. I do wonder if that was just for a return fight, which could be, and that he would not want to face Patterson against his current self or just overall at any point.

There does seem to be speculation with why he retired. And Floyd may have been part of that reason or at least helped.

Now as far as a younger Rocky, since you are putting him in the early 1950's, it is interesting.

Best out of 3 would be interesting.

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Saw it.

I could see why he said that. Marciano did come with a bit more weapons.

The article I also posted up once also had Marciano discussing that it was harder to hit him directly on the chin than it appeared.

http://www.john-summers.net/marciano.html

 

No he was not. Why do you think so ?
It just surprised me when you voted for James to stop Rocky but only to win a decision against Patterson.
Patterson had a weaker punch resistance and a less effective offense.

 

Two fighters that are favorites of mine to watch. At their best, they're both different kinds of poetry in motion. Terrible, terrible stylistic match-up for Toney, imo, though. I will say I find the Patterson/Tunney match-up thread much more interesting. Fascinating even.