Prime For Prime Cleveland Williams vs Brian London

That Williams was on the threshold of a title shot is a simple fact. The match with Terrell for the vacant WBA title was all set up when Williams got shot.

Eddie Machen was not a gatekeeper, he was the #2 contender, with only Sonny Liston ranked ahead of him. He was 29 years old and in his prime, and on a 5-bout winning streak since dropping a very close decision to Harold Johnson (the "veteran lightheavyweight" who was also the reigning world lightheavyweight champion).

Machen's winning streak included a one-sided victory over Brian London, and yet against Williams he could only manage a draw. Majority draw, actually, with two judges scoring it even and the third having Williams ahead by a clear margin.

 

I'm not disagreeing that Williams was on the threshold of some kind of big fight, I am asking where exactly was Williams going?? He'd already lost to Terrell. Machen fought Terrell (presumably in place of Williams) and he lost too. Ali was the real champion, he beat Terrell. Where was Williams going? He either fights Terrell and loses again then fights Ali and loses like he did..coincidently he lost exactly the same way as Brian London lost to Ali.

 

No argument that Ali was the real champion, but you're assuming that Terrell would have beaten Williams if they had met as planned in 1965. Terrell had won their previous encounter by a split decision which could as easily have gone the other way, in a 10-round contest with Williams finishing the stronger. There's nothing there to suggest that Terrell was a certain winner in a 15-round title bout.

If the fight had gone ahead and Williams had won, he would presumably have met Ali in a unification bout in '66 or '67. He would probably have lost, but he would certainly have put up a better fight than he did in real life since he would not have been on the comeback trail from being shot in the stomach.

 

There just was not any mileage in Williams even before his shooting. Terrell stood more chance of winning in a rematch with Williams (in a fight of no more historical significance than francois botha vs Axell schulz) because Terrell was the improving fighter. Don't forget Williams had been relaunched a few times already. Initially Williams was provisionally lined up as a future marciano opponent (when he was show cased on the Lastaza polo grounds bill) but he could not stay undefeated. Later he was groomed as a Patterson opponent but Liston saw to that. Then in the Ali era he levelled out against the next generation without standing out at all. It's just pie in the sky to elevate Williams beyond what he was.

 

He was going into a title fight!!!!!!
Stop with the sh*t! Calling the number 2 contender a gate keeper,how desperate are you?

 

It's not desperate to call machen gatekeeper of the Patterson era. It is actually factual.

Machen and Folley guarded the top rankings together like gatekeepers. Isn't that gatekeeping? They dropped the odd decision but they often recovered form by beating other contenders. They were certainly elite contenders too but would go up and down the top half at the top ten. Beating either of them only meant something if a run of simular wins could be maintained but usually only Liston could do this.

A draw with Machen was not as good as a win over Machen. I don't see how drawing with machen enhances a fighters status. What did actually beating machen do for Harold Johnson or Folley?. Folley also drew with Machen when Machen was #1. What good did that draw do for either of folley or Machen? They both lost to Europeans right after it.

IMO It is more desperate to believe Big Cat Williams could emulate George Foremans biggest wins.

Initially Williams was provisionally lined up as a future marciano opponent (when he was show cased on the Lastaza polo grounds bill) but he could not stay undefeated. Later he was groomed as a Patterson opponent but Liston saw to that. Then in the Ali era he levelled out against the next generation without standing out at all. It's just pie in the sky to elevate Williams beyond what he was.

 

The number 2 contender is NOT a gate keeper.