Prime for Prime-Evander Holyfield vs Mike Tyson

Your comparing the first round. Holyfield hurt Cooper thats why he opened up a bit more but started off boxing in similar fashion. Foreman also managed to land pretty easily on Holyfield as did Cooper. Holy fought some very sloppy reckless rounds against Foreman later in the fight as he did against others, thats why they called him the warrior, he went to war, and going to war with a prime Tyson would have been his downfall.
Holyfield was badly hurt and almost stopped by a journeyman with a poor mans version of Tyson style.

 

I think he would have crushed Tyson. With all due respect, I think you're overrating Tyson by assuming Holyfield couldn't afford to do some brawling with him. And the Bert Cooper fight is not a good barometer, I believe Holyfield took him lightly.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. :good

 

Yes, but one last point. The Cooper fight was actually very telling and heres why. Holyfield could be taken into a brawl by fighters who wanted it or pushed for it. Holyfield just couldnt help himself early on and we saw it time and time again leading up to and including the second Bowe fight where he fought a much more refrained fight and there is no way Holyfield is standing toe to toe with a prime Mike Tyson.
I think you are overating how ring smart Holyfield was in the early part of his career. Yes he did some great things and made some great adjustments in fights, but he wasnt as disciplined as he became later on. It took a mind like Emanuel Steward and Tommy Brooks to hold him back.

 

The thing is, if he stands toe-to-toe with a prime Mike Tyson he's taking a risk but he's also going to be putting some serious hurting back on Tyson. It's not like he ran and held when they did eventually fight.
I just dont rate Tyson's ability to take a sustained series of punches, he couldn't fight going back, and Holyfield's punches weren't bee stings.

Holyfield had George Benton with him in the period we're discussing.
I think you're quick to notice Holyfield being "recakless" or "careless" at certain times against Foreman, for example, BUT he brawled a similar amount (to the Foreman fight) against Bowe in the rematch too (under Steward).
Not to mention the third Bowe fight where Holyfield was trading too much, and got himself stopped in 8 rounds (under Don Turner and Tommy Brooks).

 

You really think he was bigger or stronger? I don't.

He weighed 215Lbs. for his first fight with Tyson, 1996.

He weighed 213Lbs. vs. Alex Stewart in 1989 (BoxRec has it listed at 212Lbs. but whatever, he was 15.2 Stones).

In his 3 fights vs. Bowe his weights were-

205Lbs. in 1992, this was his lowest weight since 1988 (202Lbs. in his HW debut vs. Tillis, KO5)

213Lbs. in 1993

217Lbs. in 1995

He was 208Lbs. vs. Dokes, Douglas, and Foreman so this is a weight that gets mentioned a lot. It was a good weight for Holyfield but the truth is he was usually heavier... and a few times lighter (3 times at HW, 202 vs. Thomas, 205 vs. Bowe, and 207 vs. Rodrigues).

Holyfield always had a big upper body. Compare his #'s with the Big HWs. You will find that he is sometimes bigger, many times as big, and at least almost as big on the following statistics-

Height- 6'2 1/2", although I've also seen 6'2" listed

Reach- 77 1/2", although I've also seen 78" listed

Weight- 202-221 Lbs. at HW

Chest- 43" Normal and 45" Expanded, although I've also seen 44" Normal and 46" listed

Biceps- 16", although I've also seen 17" listed

Neck- 19 1/2", although I've seen 19 3/4" listed

What is somewhat smaller on Holyfield compared to some of the big HWs are these measurements-

Forearm- 12 1/2"

Waist- 32"

Thigh- 22"

Calf- 13"

Wrist- 7 1/2"

Fist- 12 1/2" (although it is 1/2" bigger than Lennox Lewis')

Anyway, both were a bit past prime in 1996. Holyfield hadn't looked good in years and people were really worried about his health. Tyson was still crushing guys but he hadn't been tested past the 3rd round (was that much different than in his "PRIME" though?). Tyson had also won 2 World title belts since he came back (he had vacated the WBC belt but still had the WBA belt).

Bruno-

Tyson had beat Bruno in 3 rounds in March of '96. Tyson stopped Bruno in 5 rounds in '89. Bruno was 19Lbs. heavier in the rematch, all muscle for what that's worth (6'3" and 247Lbs.). Bruno had gone 8-1 (7) since his first fight with Tyson and picked up the WBC belt from Oliver McCall, W12. He had also beat Ribalta KO2, Coetzer KO8, "The Truth" Williams KO10, and Jesse Ferguson KO1 during this stretch. The only loss was vs. Lewis (LTKOby7). He gave Lewis hell and was slightly ahead on the cards after 6 rounds. Bruno was still on his feet when the fight was stopped but he was out of it (Oct. '93).

 

Ruddock landed harder accurate punches on Tyson and it did nothing. You seem to think the Tyson of 96 is the same as the Tyson of 88 or 90 again.. Holyfield didnt hurt Tyson that much in 96 until late in the fight when Tyson was pretty dam exhausted. He still couldnt get him off his feet when he was defenseless.
Your also putting too much emphasis on backing Tyson up. Noone backed Tyson up at his best. He backed up against Holyfield because he wasnt the same fighter. Douglas didnt back him up, he just beat him to the punch and kept him at distance with good footwork and jab. As much as Holyfield underestimated Cooper like you say, Tyson underestimated Douglas. You seem to give Holyfield a pass for his poor performances but Tysons were all keys to how one dimensional he was.

He still fought a more controlled fight and just like in the Foreman fight, he was more effective when he boxed, but he still brawled in both, was hurt at one point against the slower Foreman, and barely won the rematch with Bowe because of it, It was his nature, and Im sure Steward would have liked Holy to box more but Tyson made everyone brawl, run, or hold and the Holyfield of 90 would have brawled or been prepared for the fight with Tyson like he was in 96 under Duva and Benton.
Tommy Brooks was an assitant to Turner, he didnt take full charge of Holyfield until the Tyson fight, where he brought in specific sparring partners and prepared Holyfield a specific way.

 

I think Holyfield was stronger and fought differently yes. Does weight only equate to strength? Was Tyson stronger and better at 239 or 228 than he was at 218? No, his game was speed and timing which definitely was not the same in 96.
Was Bruno any better in 96 than he was in 89? No, probably worse with the added weight especially against a brawler.

 

Ruddock threw like one, two, maybe three punches at a time, usually just one.

Holyfield beat the crap out of Tyson almost the entire fight.

I dont think Tyson was the same fighter, but the fight wasn't even close. I'm happy to ignore the fight, but if I cant reference '96 Tyson as comparable to '88 or '90 Tyson, then stop refereencing what Tyson did to his B-level opponents in regards to what he can do against Holyfield.

"No one backed Tyson up at his best" ..... maybe, but I dont rate any of those fighters up with Evander Holyfield.
Call it what you will, Douglas had Tyson stopped in his tracks and taking shots. Of course, Tyson never stops coming forward when he's on his feet, it's his style, but Douglas wasn't just "keeping him at a distance", he was pounding the crap out of him and Tyson was probably seeing stars all night. Some of the punches were knocking Tyson right back.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8CDBgxXvUM[/ame]

Holyfield beat Cooper. Even if it was a very close call, the vast majority of the Holyfield-Cooper fight was Holyfield beating the crap out of Cooper.
Tyson lost to Douglas all the way.

I do think Tyson was a bit one-dimensional. And I always did, long before anyone beat him.

 

BTW, Holyfield (pre-Lewis) could have went toe to toe with a prime Tyson. Why couldn't he? Tyson is at least 3" shorter and has a 6 1/2" shorter reach. The weight is similar.

Tyson is unable to lean on Holyfield and wear him down in the way that bigger fighters like Foreman, Bowe, and Lewis were able to do at times vs. Holyfield.

Tyson is also unable to keep Holyfield off of him with the jab. Holyfield would be able to fight on the outside vs. Tyson and take advantage of his longer reach.

Also, when Tyson gets on the inside he he would be unable to bully Holyfield because only a supersized HW is able to do this to Holyfield... Tyson has no leverage and little to no extra weight. Holyfield could also tie him up and push him off of him. Right after the push off... land a shot to the face. This ain't no tickling contest!

You must also remember that Holyfield is very durable. Holyfield brings one of the best HW chins to the ring ever.

 

Some of those B- level opponents were giving Holyfield some troubles thats clear, just as Tyson wasnt the same fighter.

Im not really using Cooper as a barometer as I said, just that Holyfield always brawled, and he would be brawling against one of the best brawlers in heavyweight history.
I feel like Im defending Tyson too much. I put a lot of stock in Holyfield he is one of my favortie fighters, and I think he would have presented a very tough fight for Tyson, I rank him higher than Tyson, but in "my opinion" Tyson was a better heavyweight in the late 80's and would have defeated Holyfield had they fought at that time.

 

Me and my friends have been back and forth on this debate.

Let me say first that Tyson and Holyfield are both 2 of my all time faves, I grew up watching both of them, so I have no clear fave. Tyson was my guy early and then when he went away to prison Holyfield became one of my faves. Ironically Holyfield won me over, I thought back in the day that Tyson or even Ruddock could have beaten him and that Holyfield was just keeping Tysons throne warm but man was I wrong.

I wanted him to lose, I didn't think he was the Real Deal. After the 1st fight with Bowe his first loss I became a HUGE Holyfield guy!! The second Holyfield-Bowe fight is one of my all time faves.

Back on topic, to anyone who grew up watching Tyson or to anyone who has studied the tapes of Tyson 85-89 vs 95-97 there are differences, as many have stated his stamina was much better, his combination punching was much better and his over all hunger and fighting fire I feel were just on different levels back then.

That being said I am not sure any version of Tyson beats Holyfield.
I have said on this board many times I think the 1996 version of Holyfield would fare very well in many H2H match ups. He was a smarter and a much more physical fighter, with the later Holyfield you lose some of his ability to get on his toes and move and he was not quite as fluid with his combos as he was against say Foreman, Cooper ,Holmes or Bowe (fights 1 and 2). What he gained how ever was ring smarts he fought more physical, he knew how to clinch with Mike and walk him to the ropes, fire punches when in close, muscling him around the ring, I don't see him fighting this way in 1990 assuming Tyson beats Douglas and they had fought then.

But I am STILL going to take Holyfield in the match even the younger Holyfield I think beats the younger Tyson. Tyson is an amazing fighter but I just think Holyfield beats him. If the fight is Pre 1996, I think Holyfield is the busier puncher, I feel as though he could takes Tysons best shots and still be in there. I feel as though he would either stop Mike late or win on points. I see it being much more competitive then in 1996, but Holyfield still takes it.

 

Good points and its nice to see someone else actually recognizes this and something Ive maintained all along. Holyfield really tweaked his style to compliment his degrading skills in the mid 90's. He punched in spots, fought more flat footed and was less apt to brawl.
That being said, stylistically in 90, Holyfield was going to be outgunned if it got physical and it would have. Unless Holyfield lands something substantial between Tyson's bombs he simply didnt have the firepower to trade with Tyson. If Bowe could stand and trade with Holyfield like he did, Tyson of 1990 can do it too. Hes faster, punches harder and has a better chin than Bowe.

 

Its a tough call, but I think that Benton and Duva would drill into Holyfields head the need to box and pick his spots. I know he lost his game plan and just threw down with Bowe, but Bowe was a fighter that Holyfield had sparred with and I truly believe that he never thought then that Bowe could have fought the way he did that night. So I think in that fight Holyfield was sure at some point he would break Bowe which he didn't.

 

True, he had sparred Bowe in the gym and Bowe quit, but he also had this bravado where he felt he had to prove he could stand with anyone regardless of their size and power. He did it with everyone, including old Foreman who he could have easily just boxed circles around if he chose to..
Tyson wasnt going to lay back either, he would be forcing the fight more than any other fighter Holyfield had faced. I would have loved for it to have come off before Tyson went to the clink, he was in training for the fight.