prime for prime sonny liston vs evander holyfield??

fair enough, the way i read it though it just seemed like you were saying lewis wasnt on liston level. :good

 

I am a huge Liston fan and believe him to be one of the best that ever lived. I just think Holyfield is a bad match up for him. That being siad it would still be an incredible bout , one that Liston would have every shot in. I just believe that Evander has the skill set to beat him and you are counting on him fighting a dumb fight for him to lose.

Evander took the bombs of Tyson and Lewis. He would survive Liston.

 

Liston was troubled by a guys who could box, as well as possessing the ability to stand up to him. I wouldn't exactly classify this as having " little holes in his game. " I also don't see where you'd even come up with the idea that Sonny's chin was as good or better than Holyfield's. On what basis do you make this claim? When was it tested to such a high degree?

 

I think this is an oversimplification. Take Ali out of the picture (the best HW ever) and you have a weak case for this claim. Williams certainly stood up to Liston, and Folley and Patterson were certainly good boxers. Didn't do them much good.

If a 30-something overconfident Holyfield (the one who met Moorer perhaps) had met a hungry, superfocussed 22-year old Clay, we might very well talk about how he was exposed in this and that way. That was a hard opponent for anyone to look good against.

 

Liston, was not troubled by those that "stood up to him." If that was the case he never would of been HW Champ, do you think Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley decided to roll over and let Sonny win? The notion that standing up to Liston and Tyson took both of them out of their game is utter nonsense.

Williams was a big puncher and landed bombs on Liston in both fights. Sonny was never in serious danger of being stopped and Cleveland knocked out some durable fighters (Terrell) I wouldn't say it's better than Holyfields but he took more of a sustained beating in both Williams fights than Holy against Cooper and was never on the verge of losing. Listons chin is very good.

 

He really only was in trouble against Ali, the greatest HW of all time. If Ali never came along, Liston likely dominates into the late '60's or early '70's. I'll admit that Machen made a very good fight but it still wasn't enough. Many fighters have stood up Liston and they still couldn't beat him. If all a fighter had to do was "stand up" and box Sonny, then he wouldn't be as great as he was.

How is Liston's chin not good? He was hit plenty against the likes of Williams who hits very hard and it didn't phase him. He had his jaw broken by Marty Marshall and kept on fighting like nothing happed. Holyfield in his prime almost was knocked out against Bert Cooper, who was an overweight Cruiserweight on short notice. Holyfield's chin was very good but let's not say it was way better than Liston's.

 

Holyfield's chin was as good as any heavyweight champions that ever lived including Ali's .. he took the biggest bombs of Tyson and Lennox Lewis, two of the hardest hitting fighters that ever lived not to mention terrific bombs from Bowe who could really crack as well. His only prime KO loss was to Bowe while he was suffering from Hep. B and never should have been in the ring. Cooper was an underachieving journeyman but he could really hit and he tagged Evander who was shaken, quickely recover and pounded the daylights out of him ...

 

I am not saying it's bad at all, but don't say it's so much better than Liston's. His chin was granite as well and he could take bombs. He was only KD twice in his career I believe; one was arguably a dive and the other was when he was way past it.

 

Liston definately had a hell of a chin. I always have believed the Ali fight was a dive. He was likely in his early/mid forties v.s. Martin and was caught with a great shot .. however, Evander definately fought the bigger punchers.

 

I can agree with that.

 

Almost out against Bruno? :nut He wasn't even knocked down or close to it!
As for the Mavrovic fight, he won basically every round... not bad for someone who supposedly doesn't fight smart.


And there's no way Liston has a better chin than Holyfield. Liston's only hard punching opponent over 210lbs is Williams, who scored a grand total of one knockout over ranked contenders during his career. Then you have Holyfield, who is proven against some of the most destructive punchers ever like Lewis and Tyson as well as very hard hitters like Bowe 3x, Foreman, Moorer, Cooper, Ibragimov when 46 years of age, Rahman and others.

I don't think the chin is going to be that much of a factor, anyway. Holyfield takes a better shot but Liston carries more power. And vice versa. If a TKO happens, it will be beyond the 10th round and after many, many rounds of grinding the other down. I would give Holyfield a better shot at that, though i think a UD is more likely. The only version of Holyfield that could do this, is the smart, post-1993 version. Let's say when he beat Bowe, trained by Emmanuel Steward.

 

I could've sworn he was hurt before he stormed back and KO'd him. Maybe it was the commentary of Tessitore on the re-run. He didn't win every round, he could've if he boxed instead went right at him.

I didn't say it WAS better, I implied that it could've been. Liston has only legitemately down once in his entire career. You can certainly make a case for Liston.

I don't think Holyfield has the power to trouble Liston although I think his power is underrated. Liston certainly has the power to hurt Holyfield late in the fight. The fact is, Holyfield would brawl against Liston and that's his undoing, he's never boxed from the outside and mid-range for a whole fight in his prime. He always resorted to brawling in his prime and after; that's where he loses the fight. Plus, Liston has the edge in almost every department except chin and speed.

 

I think it a tough fight for both men. Evander not really a killer puncher but he hit solid enough. Liston with his powerfull jab ( Foreman had one later on) and Evander could box and punch, he did it with Bowe and Lewis and Mercer and Tyson and Rahman. I think it boils down to Evander would not be intimindated by Liston and Sonny would not fold under Evanders power but I expect Evander to be able to do what he has to to take the NOD and I would not be surprised if both men wobbled a few times...More than likely a close dec. win for Evander.

 

O really? What about Nino Valdez? A very hard puncher and 6'3 211lb Himself. And Mike Dejohn? 6'5 205-210lb A tremendous Left Hook. These guys could knock anyone out if they landed flush, and Liston took there best stuff. Liston had a granite jaw.


I really cannot see how Evander takes this. Liston was the better boxer, had the much better jab, and used his range much better...Evander will not outbox him. Sonny was also stronger, hit much harder, and was a better inside fighter...So evander will not outbrawl him.


A warrior with heart who comes to battle...these types of fighters are MADE in order for Liston

 

I cant believe how many people are backing Holyfield here, Liston would make Bowe look like a teddy bear in comparison. Liston by mid-fight KO.