Prime for Prime, Who Wins @ 168, James Toney vs Joe Calzaghe?

this thread is actually quite good so far: a question for people voting for calzaghe. other than outworking him (which is a valid point, griffin did it TWICE), how would joe win? this is not meant as a flame but a serious question as I'm not seeing a lot of specifics so far.

 

You have to be out of your ****ing mind to see any other result for James Toney vs Joe Calzaghe at 168 to be a clear UD to Joe Calzaghe.

Simply put, James Toney never really proved himself at the weight, was never really that good at MW either - had just come at a period where most of the other contenders had moved on.

At CW? James Toney likely wins, body of work is impressive there although I think Calzaghe is the better adapter of the two and the more able to figure one another out.

How the fight would go at 168?

I see the first few rounds being intriguing, I'm sure Toney will catch Calzaghe early with something as they try to learn what one another is about.

Middle rounds, you'll start to see Calzaghe lift the work rate and pace - something that Toney was never comfortable with at any weight. You'll also see Calzaghe employing in and out footwork as he did with Lacy and to a lesser extent Hopkins.

Late rounds, Toney will be in his trademark tired down the stretch routine of trying his version of Rope-a-Dope - won't work against Calzaghe, not in his prime.

It's such an easy 116-114 to even a 118-112 that it makes me laugh that people over-rate Toney to such an extent and underrate Calzaghe.

Same Calzaghe that landed more punches on Hopkins than any other fighter.

 

The specifics?

It's a simple fight, you've got a guy who has much quicker hands, better footwork and more stamina against a guy who uses his wiles to trap fighters with counter punching.

No one has successfully countered Joe Calzaghe through an entire fight. Guys like Kessler, Jones Jr, Hopkins and Reid all did it early in their fights with him but he adapts so quickly that he can change up a match situation.

We've seen Toney when he can't establish the usual routine of his fight, he's not that adaptable as a fighter - he's slick and polished but he fights with one plan - that plan for me doesn't work against a fighter who can beat you to the punch 8 times out of 10 and who will throw double the volume you throw.

Their chins in my view are about the same - both went down, neither stayed down.

Let me turn it in on you - how does James Toney at 168 deal with Calzaghe? "Walk through the punches" - no one has done that. "Box him from distance" - He was never an outside fighter. "Beat him up on the inside" - Calzaghe's footwork is better and whats more, on the inside owing to those flurries, he's extremely hard to catch.

 

James Toney ud

 

at 160-168 he fought michael nunn, reggie johnson, mccallum x2, iran barkley, tony thornton, charles williams

at 190 he fought jirov

his cruiser resume is WAY weaker than his middle or super middle resume. but you make some valid points in regards to how the fight goes. while i disagree, it's well thought out:good

 

fair enough. good analysis. though i feel the difference in hand speed is WAY overrated in this thread. toney at his best, which is how we're taking them, at very nearly the same hand speed and far, far more power. on the outside and backfoot, it's calzaghe. on the inside, it's all toney.

 

Toney was never that much of a handspeed fighter - he was a timing fighter, timing can beat speed in many instances but only when it comes from the outside.

Where you feel people underrate Toney compared to Calzaghe in handspeed is how I feel about people when they talk about their defense and their power.

Calzaghe was never that easy to find from the middle rounds onwards for any fighter because of his defense, I think it's an often overlooked thing that the first 4-6 rounds in near every Calzaghe fight of note were close and then he just shifted into a different style and pretty much always won the last 6 rounds of every fight he was in.

Power wise, again, in his prime, Calzaghe had the ability to stun guys with a single punch and finish them off, which is why he has a high T(KO) percentage. I don't think there is that wide of a gap between them in power that it would be noticeable in a fight in their primes.

On the inside? I think Toney would struggle to time Calzaghe. The one thing that I think makes Calzaghe near unbeatable is also the thing that makes him look amateurish in most of his fights - his slaphands.

If you watch him closely, you start to see what he's actually doing - he's keeping his opponent busy with a number of flurries that he's hardly putting any effort into - could do it for three minutes in a round if he wanted - the moment he spots an opening, he sits down on one.

The "infamous" clip of Hopkins that was slowed down to show Joe throwing a number of wide, arm punches demonstrates it - it was unsuccessful but you can see what he's trying to do - where most fighters feint - he touches leather on the face and then looks to load up, on that occassion, Hopkins was too good, saw it coming and got the shoulder infront of it.

I don't think Toney is anywhere near as good on the inside as Hopkins is at defending.

 

I know most my fighters - I think the only reason I get brushed as a Calzaghe nut hugger is because I'm one of the few who actually analysed his style and will defend him in H2H matchups against guys like Hopkins and Toney in their prime.

Only guy from 160-168 in the same era that I see beating Calzaghe is RJJ, but then being honest, I don't see anyone from 160-175 beating RJJ in a prime for prime fight, not Spinks, not Ezzard Charles, no one.

Toney is a very talented fighter but I always felt throughout his career that unlike the very best fighters, if he wasn't in the ascendancy early, he never had it in him to adapt his style and find a way to victory.

Toney has the more noticeable wins, but then that's because he was an American fighter fighting against American fighters who had more press and headlines, I think the most overrated aspect of Toney is his ring intelligence - I think his ring intelligence is limited to the tricks he has to avoid punches - but in terms of changing up his style to win a fight? Never saw it.

Since Boxing became more globalised in the last 10 or so years, Euro fighters are more acclaimed - ironically, the acclaim that Kessler, Abraham, Bute, Froch and co are getting now wouldn't have existed in late 90s, early 00s - the guys that Joe was beating back then in my view are as good, if not better than some of the SMW guys in this era, I think a good number of his wins are severely underrated due to this - while some of Toney, Hopkins and Jones Jr's wins are overrated.

As for styles winning fights, take away the Superman stylings of RJJ - Hopkins is the guy who I think gives Joe the most problems at any time, because of his ability on the inside, his ability against Southpaws and the fact that unlike Toney, he is adaptable in fights.

I was 50/50 on the Hopkins vs Calzaghe fight because of my belief that Hopkins wasn't an "aged" fighter (proven against Pavlik) and that he had the perfect style to deal with Calzaghe.

Was impressed at how nastily Calzaghe won that one, probably more impressed with that then I was Lacy.

 

Toney made a career out of countering and/or over powering come forward plodders.Against busy fighters he never looked so good,Calzaghe would have been too busy for Toney,and pre 2002 would still have had some pop in that left hand.Anyone picking Toney to outbox,counter and overwhelm Joe is just plain stupid or plain ignorant.
Toney was good at 168,Calzaghe was better.:good

 

Bang on.

 

:firekinda harsh dude...

 

Hopkins was able to catch Calzaghe with flush right hands repeatedly threw their fight. He just got tired because of his age, as he got tired against an active Taylor.

Against a prime Toney, he'd be in trouble. Calzaghes style which is predicated on work rate and not much defense would be perfect for a fighter like Toney.

 

calzaghe's chin and defense aren't at toney's level.

 

The compubox numbers for that fight were silly. Hopkins slipped most of his slaps, and was unmarked at the end of the fight. He caught him with a couple lead lefts but no way did he land half the punches compubox said he did.