The big sluggers of both of their respective eras. Obviously Foreman proved to be much better in terms of longevity with his comeback, but both were comprehensively schooled by much lesser and smaller fighters, and taken out by the best of their era in conclusive fashion. As far as career parallels they have somewhat different paths. But how are they different technically? Let's take a look at their best performances: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9l_RrjjTMc[/ame] [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yilXvhph3Y[/ame] The styles are different, in part because they are facing different opponents, but you can get a basic grasp of styles. Both guys enjoy size, power, and reach advantages here but their opponents are pretty different. Frazier and Schmeling are both fighting out of shells, but Schmeling and Baer boxed more in their bout, exchanging leads, parrying and blocking more. Frazier-Foreman starts similar but frazier's increasing pressure opens George up a lot more, letting him use his uppercut. Baer has a bit of a style and speed disadvantage to overcome here, and you can see schmeling outboxing him despite the size and speed disadvantage. Max in my opinion is the fundamentally better boxer. He picks off punches pretty well for a slugger and like old Foreman uses a cross arm defense to cover up when necessary, and does a solid job of shoulder blcoking.Unfortunately in this bout he fouls Schmeling something fierce, backhands, rabbit punches. Mixed in with the wild swings for the fence Baer lets some pretty decent short punches to the head and body. Strangely enough he spends a lot of time on the backfoot in this one(not to his benefit). One of the most heavy, painful looking right hands, tighter hooks than you would think. George is more effective at his best. He uses his physical reach and strength to create space very well to tee off, and unlike Max he opens up more frequently and for longer periods of time, which might be why he tires horribly later on. He has a better jab like Max than most give him credit for, but lacks the catch-n-parry to make it really effective on the outside. It's a way to poleaxe and pressure in, and in that respect it works. As far as bullying goes he is very effective, and his uppercut is a deadly inside-middle weapon. The thing that Foreman really does perfectly is creating that space at the middle range to where he can land his bombs, his slight pushes with forearms and gloves are actually his best weapons. Both guys are sluggers and punchers, not stylists. But at their best both are more sound and effective than a first glance or a highlight real would show. Baer has the edge in blocking and outside, and i think he has better short and inside punching. Foreman has better control of range, better punch variety in terms of sunday punches, and uses his physical strength better than almost any fighter on film. Baer may be the more patient operator by a hair, and I think that's evident in how many KOs he has in later rounds. Foreman is more devastating overall, but in a matchup between the two I might be inclined to favor Max. What do you think?
Swarmer, that's a knowledgeable and well studied analysis. Max also showed some defensive skills eluding shots when King Levinski tried to repeatedly sucker punch him in their "exhibition," before wiping him out with an underrated left hook. He was retreating into a corner when he suddenly ducked and flattened Comiskey with a lethal right over the top. He spent much time skipping back from Carnera, conceding the rounds he didn't deck Primo in, but also taking the big man into deep water. Head to head, this is also what I see him doing to prime Foreman, moving away from that physical strength until George tires after Baer asserts his own punching power early (and Foreman could always be hit). Max wasn't particularly fast, but I do think he was faster than any version of George. His rematch decision over Farr was a dominant performance over the championship distance against a fine boxer.
I agree that his distance boxing would get him a W against Big George. For my money he has the better straight punches and defense, and i think he'd definitely have the chin to outlast the early storm if he was in good shape.Baer has the strangest leaps in activity i've ever seen. When he puts the heat on he moves faster and punches with better leverage and variety than you'd expect. At 2:20- It's to Louis' strong credit that he not only managed to withstand that barrage but get out of the corner and fire back against a bigger, stronger man and beat him head to head. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5zkE4BkMgg&feature=related[/ame]
Good posts. :good Technically Baer was superior, IMO. But Foreman was more bloodthirsty, he had more of a fighting heart.
Baer had superior skill? Amusing. No jab, kept his hands down low and fought inferior opponents and have a worse over all record.
Ironically, six of one, half a dozen of the other. Loughran defeated him after Campbell, then generously tipped Max off that he had been telegraphing his shots. At some point, this would have cost him even without any fatalities associated with his fists. So that was one element of improvement in his performance after Campbell. Prior to Campbell, Max had only gone past six rounds twice, in a ten round decision win over veteran Ernie Owens (who he would subsequently knock out twice), and a ten round loss to Les Kennedy. Following Campbell, he lost ten round decisions to Schaaf, Loughran and Risko that nonetheless extended him, then dropped the 20 rounder to Uzcudun in the Nevada desert. But after Uzcudun, he took five ten round decisions, a 20 round decision over King Levinski, and produced a pair of tenth round knockouts, the second of these over Schmeling. I think his loss of lust for battle may actually be responsible for causing him to be consistently extended in these bouts in a way Foreman wasn't. Take away the Campbell tragedy, and Max likely continues producing easy and early knockouts like Foreman did after Peralta II, which could cost him dearly when he stepped up, as it did George in Kinshasa and San Juan. Prior to Campbell, he was taking out most opponents in six rounds or less, much like Foreman before he gassed in the jungle. Take away Carnera's injured ankle and the fatalities which traumatized Max, and maybe Primo also causes Baer to gas. Max benefited greatly from the confidence in his stamina acquired from going 20 rounds and winning. He'd learned how to pace himself.
I agree with the statement that both guys are technically underrated, and your analysis is mostly spot on. I do think George has the edge in a fight, though, for 2 reasons. The first being, the jab. Max doesn't really have one, George does. Second, Max was a lazy fighter. Its sad, but true. Even in his best performances, there are long periods of time where he would just wait, and wait, and wait, and not really punch, or box, or do much at all. The man gave his title to Braddock. Literally, refuses to engage the smaller underdog at times. I dont think there is any way to survive a young George Foreman waiting on him like that. People say Ali, but Ali punched back quite often. Only in the second round did he really take a pounding without response. I believe Baer had technical advantages, but as a fighter, he comes up short using them. Foreman would outwork him and possibly stop him. For a puncher, Baer just did a bit too much looking sometimes.
I wouldnt call Ali or Young mediocre. I'd call one of them pretty good, and the other amazing. Baer shouldn't have lost to Braddock. He didnt fight him. He literally stood and smiled and got hit in the face. It is unfathomable to me that one would throw ones title away like this. I'd argue that in a purist sense, Braddock didn't really outbox Baer, he outworked him. I think if Max gave George the same liberty, he's going to sleep. I can, however, totally see the points you are trying to make, and I think your analysis is accurate.
One of the aspects of a Young Foreman that is underrated, and really the biggest game changer from a young and old Foreman is his foot-speed. Everyone talks about him pushing Joe around, and he did a fair share of this. But he shows quick feet in an effort to slide and slip around Frazier. He's no Walcott, but it allowed him to settle in a groove by using distance and his jab. I think his jab was damn good too, and I think he did well keeping Joe bothered at a range with it. He's not the best setting it up, and doesn't seem to have that 1-2 sort of combo to use that jab as a blinder for a more powerful right (Old Foreman had this. See the Moorer KO). Young Foreman wasn't the smartest fighter. He wasn't meticulous or as calculating with his power the way his idol Sonny Liston was. But he was a wrecking ball, and I think he was capable of using his jab to push a fighter back so he could flurry deadly combinations over them. A prime example of this is the Chuvalo fight. If you watch the Frazier fight and Foreman's earlier fights, and then watch Foreman-Norton and Foreman-Ali. The guy fell in love in his power, and just stopped jabbing. It's the most obvious mental transition change I've seen in a fighter (Besides a fighter being tentative after a KO), more so than what the Tyson advocates argue when they talk about the eroding skills of Mike from Spinks to Bruno I (That's another discussion, though). The footspeed is what really made Foreman special. He looks kind of athletic. He's not ploddy and slow of foot like his idol Liston. And not only does he have this physical tool, but he was taught how to cut of the ring and be an absolute destroyer. Foreman's defense is to a large degree his offense, but he liked coming forward and catching your punches with his gloves. Foreman catching your punches with his glove, and then going into destroy (via Terminator) mode is terrifying. Personally, I think Foreman would brutalize Baer because of his jab, because of his instincts, and because of his durability. What do people think about Foreman's reflexes? Leaky defense, but he did a decent job catching punches for it being his only real mechanism to not get punched in the face (Besides his own offense, that is).
Pete beat me to the fact that all too often overlooked is Foreman's foot positioning and movement. I would go so far as to call it "athletic". He's been seen to grab the guy's arm and push him to the side, sidestepping simultaneously, to move around the other guy. He's pretty good on his feet, and that allowed him to position himself for monstrous shots. I personally like Foreman in this one, because he'd be maintaining the distance and fighting at his range. Great analysis, though- Max was one tough and underrated s.o.b....
Baer was tough and strong that's about it. Far too passive, Foreman would destroy him, jesus christ this guy was retreating from lightheavy's he was twice the size of, i can't workout his mentality at all.