Prime Frazier 1969-1971 vs Prime Foreman 1973

Might,if, perhaps,smoke and mirrors. Foreman always thrashes Frazier.

Frazier himself said," Old George was too powerful for me,"just face it.

Any range Frazier can hit Foreman from is inside Foreman's own hitting range .
Foreman is strong enough to just keep Frazier where he wants him. Frazier was like a rag doll in there.
Foreman is a bigger puncher and two handed, at range he can pop him with the jab .

Frazier just has no way to win this fight.

 

Everybody who has a rudimentary grasp of boxing knows that Foreman learned to pace himself better in his second career, it had zero to do with magically developing better stamina when he had entered his 40's.That doesn't happen in middle age.
In his first career he usually came out blasting, shooting his wad early, but by then his opponent was on the floor.

Three cagey boxers realized this Peralta, Young, and Ali .The first two fought to a defensive strategy which was their accepted style anyway,the last did not have the legs to evade Foreman until he tired from throwing those huge punches with his big arms, he elected to play Russian roulette on the ropes, and he won.
Your stamina does not improve when you are in middle age ,take it from one who knows.

How old are you 12? Back to school for you soon.

ps No charge for this lesson in pugilistic dynamics.

 

I disagree, Frazier hit Foreman with plenty of hooks, Foreman didnt even wince, ive watched the fight multiple times.

Frazier trying to outgun Foreman is like a guy with an Uzi trying to take out a guy with an RPG

Its kind of bizarre you claim Frazier hits harder than Lyle and would put Foreman over, when in fact they fought twice and Frazier never came close to doing it, yet the guy who is supposedly weaker, in Lyle, actually dropped Foreman multiple times in just one fight?

 

As i said before, doesnt matter which Frazier turns up, hes going to do the same thing over and over again and that is walk into Foremans uppercuts

 

We both know it ,but others won't accept what is blatantly obvious.

 

As great as Joe was, he was pretty much one dimensional as they come

and even in the fight where he tried to alter his style (Foreman 2), he still ended up getting knocked out.

 

I disagree with this.

What Foreman's tactics were for their fight was to shove and push Joe's left shoulder. Specifically, the inside of his left shoulder. He's so strong it twists his torso and affects his balance. It forces Joe to re-set and start over.

What George did then was to throw uppercuts and left hooks. They knew Joe was going to wade in again once again after he re-set himself. They knew right were he'd be. They even worked on jab and a half step back. Then load up on big shots. Joe was always going to be right there.

Eddie Futch said they had never prepared for that. Why, I don't know because Foreman did that a lot. most people interpret it as a sloppy kind of jab or like Ali said, the mummy.

But Joe can bob and weave better like his earlier days but he never fought as low as a Marciano. George could always reach that shoulder.

To me, it was a very very smart strategy and worked to perfection. Just a bad matchup for Joe. How many guys are strong enough and big enough like a Foreman to pull that kind of thing off? most guys Joe would reach with that sizzling left hook that would try that.

 

Another thing which goes highly unnoticed and under appreciated in this fight is Foremans feignting, although he doesnt use it much, i think in the first round he feignts, throws a jab to which Frazier ducks and Foremans starts throwing uppercuts.

I think its in the first round

 

This is a good post, and I see your point. Everything Foreman did worked well. This is exactly what George did. Frazier was a programed sequence of motions in a circuit he could not break. If his head went down it was going to come back up regardless of if a punch was on its way toward him or not. He did not care because he was shifting his weight as he rolled, being hit just meant he could reach the other guy. Fraziers own ability to land more accurately and more frequently would offset this when he was at his best.

But my point is the footwork and timing that was required for Joe to land at long range was absent after TFOTC. He ceased to throw anything at midrange. That part of his arsenal was gone. It prevented much of an opponents offence thus having that range providing something of a defence.. It appeared although Frazier came in straight lines but in his prime he really didn't. He had a long hook and a short hook. He could shift and come up with it as he stepped in at an angle. He could land at both distances.

If Joe can land at the mid range distance before George can touch his shoulder he is hitting George first. Never mind reach, think of the angle. But yes George and his team did their homework and did an excelent job on the version of Frazier he fought.

 

Foreman would get Frazier out of there before his pacing/stamina even comes into question

as he did do, twice

 

Well I guess what I'm thinking is Joe cannot pull it off for 3 minutes a round. especially with him being the slower starter of the 2.
It's just that foreman was so strog with that shoving. And Joe and his attack type personality aren't going to like it. He'll look to change things and impose his will. He'll re-set and fire. Foreman doesn't have to land clean to the jaw is the problem. I think those right and left hooks George threw just have to bounce off the top of his head and they'll make Joe acknowledge the punch. most guys have to land a perferctly placed punch. George doesn't.

But there's only 1 George Foreman big enough and strong enough to pull it off. And the temprement to trade with anyone.

A Weaver or Rahman or Povetkin try that with Joe and they're gone.

I was at that 2nd Foreman/Frazier bout. On tv it looks like Joe is doing okay and hanging in there. Sometimes being live at a fight provides a different kind of feeling. The feeling in the audience was George is going to catch him sooner or later and when he does, it's all over. You could taste it. Now that's not the way it comes across on the television screen and especially anything with Cosell announcing.

But in the 120 years of heavies just how many guys have that toolset of Foreman pulling that kind of thing off against a Joe Frazier? WSome folks like Sonny, but I see that as more boxing and Joe having to deal with a jab. Jeffries? I don't know enough about the guy. But beating the guy from 71 that won the biggest fight the sport has seen is going to take a bunch of specific tools to deal with mr Frazier.

 

Look at the post below yours ,it emphatically answers your statement . You don't win fights by hoping a monster hitter gets exhausted beating on you.atsch

 

Liston jabs him at range , uppercuts him inside and out punches him at mid range, better puncher , better with two hands , better chin.
Lewis clean kos him.
Jeffries would have a very good chance imo.

 

That's Foreman's big chance in my opinion prime Joe's slow starting. Apart from that Frazier at his best has the pedigree here. It was not just Ali that exposed Foremans short comings in my opinion. Look at the punches Foreman took from Ted Gullick. If you give Frazier Two ranges to fight with like he had in his prime it opens things up for him a whole lot more than what he had to work with in Kingston Jamaica.

Regarding the foreman v Frazier rematch I also felt what you saw watching the fight live. Poor Joe, brave to the last but trying something new.. was not going to cut it with what he had left after Manila. For all that extra movement he still only had close range to work with.

I just think a decent puncher who controls the distance beats post TFOTC Frazier. Unless I am missing something any fighter who can fight only at close range is at a severe disadvantage against one who can keep him at arms length and hurt him from that distance. It is an unfair advantage.

Take that away and its more of a level playing field. It means two fighters rather than just one can actually land shots. Then workrate comes into it.

Everyone looks fantastic landing unanswered shots but we saw what happened when Lyle could trade with George. He got hit back. Joe in his prime can trade at that range. Absolutely. Not saying it is enough but Joe hit hard enough.