prime hagler top ten?

you're right, Duran does deserve a mention in this thread concerning the top 10 MWs of all time. Stylistically he was all wrong for the physiology of the division

 

I think a prime Freddie Steele would beat a prime Marvin Hagler.I think Fred Apostoli would beat Hagler too.8)

 

*Hey Burt.. don't know u..but u r spot on ur assessment... i've come in here and that same thing has happened to me when i dissagree... now i randomly visit... i don't consider the site as a top site due to this rants like this idiot.
*I do visit becuz there r sharp posters in here... and i always look for a good topic...


*"Iceman's forum"... possibly the most informed ..."the boxing tribune blue corner" is the most fun... drop by if u can... I'm visit both regularly.

 

B, Thank you. I'll give it a look !

 

Monzon was very similar to Hagler, i think, (in legacy). About the same length of time with the title and no of defences. Monzon was probably a little more consistent, i think but not as spectacular or impressive to watch.

Tommy Ryan reigned also had a very similar length of time, at the weight as world champion. His record really is quite similar to Ray Robinson's, across the board (including the welterweight reign), and without actually losing the title so many times, but you would never know it due to lack of footage and current media coverage. And Tony Zale's length of reign was similar to Haglers as well. Not forgetting the Non Pareil Jack Dempsey either.

Greb and Walker both had shorter reigns, but were more successful at the higher weights. Bob Fitzsimmons, of course, reigned not quite as long as Hagler, but fought a lot more often as champion (though not all were title defences, as they were against heavier opponents and he had run out of viable middleweight opponents), and was a lot more succesful in getting quicker kos.

You also have to factor in guys who had short but very impressive careers cut short, tragically. Guys like Ketchell and Darcy.

Then you have the group of fighters who went on to much better things at higher weights, but were still i am sure absolute beasts at middleweight. Guys like Ezzard Charles, Jack O Brien, Joe Choynski, Tommy Burns, Charley Mitchell, Roy Jones JR, James Toney, Sam Langford etc.

And finally you have guys who had short reigns or were even excluded from the title, but were still great fighters who could have given anyone a run for their money. Guys the Sullivan twins, Freddie Steele, Gibbons, Emile Griffith, Turpin, Cerdan, Papke, Charlie Burley, Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer, Jake lamotta etc.

I have Hagler well inside my top 10, even top 5 and I can see why many people have him as number one. But, i can guarantee that more than 10 people are capable of beating him, in what is probably the hottest contested division ever. It is not as ridiculous as it seems for some to have him outside the top 10.

 

U,nice to answer your always informed post.
Freddie Steele, was one of our most truly "underated" middleweights.
Freddie Steele in his first TEN YEARS was virtually unbeatable. He lost 2 fights as a youngster, and during this time Steele flattened the rugged Ceferino Garcia twice, Gus Lesnevich,amongst others he whipped, Vince Dundee, Gorilla Jones, Babe Risko, Fred Apostoli, Solly Kreiger, Ken Overlin'
who whipped a deadly young Ezzard Charles, etc.About 5 middleweight champions, Steele beat until after about 130 fights his breastbone was fractured in a bout with a great Fred Apostoli, just about ending his career.
Freddie Steele fought 144 bouts, against great opponents, whilst Marvin Hagler had 67 bouts, against only a few top opponents.
I,never saw live Freddie Steele, but I have for many years heard real old timers rave about Steele, and his greatness. Yes, I too take Steele over Hagler, because of the quality of his opposition, and his dominance for 10 years until his injury. ESB check Steele out on youtube...Cheers...

 

Great post Boilermaker. I've always felt rankings of the middles was a lot more subjective than people make it out to be. Lots of guys with similar resumes... And for some reason the MW class has always been a 'transitionary' weight with lots of guys coming up from lower weights and going/growing up to bigger better things.

Hence the name, i guess..

 

Always good to hear your recollections of the recollections of the "real old timers" ! :good
A lot of people forget about the 1930s middleweights when they list some of the greatest of all-time. There was a bit of title dispute in that 10 - 15 years, but also some exceptional fighters at the 160 pound class.

Between Mickey Walker and Tony Zale, there were all those guys you mention (I forgot Steele had whipped all of them!) and also, among others, the great Marcel Thil, Teddy Yarosz, Holman Williams and a young middleweight Billy Conn !

One of Britain's best boxers ever Len Harvey lost three fights in a row in Madison Square Garden in January - March 1931 : twice to Vince Dundee and once to Ben Jeby.
Harvey was renowned around the British Empire as a masterful scientific boxer, a truly great one, but it shows how tough the middleweight scene in America and the world that he couldn't make more of an impact.

At the same time the great Mickey Walker, certainly no more than a middleweight, was graduating to beating up some of the top heavyweights of the day !
Just anpther example of how great that underrated middleweight era was.
For Freddie Steele to compile the record he did in that era is remarkable, :good

 

He certainly hung with hagler but it was always gonna be tough for a lightweight to take the crown. Both armstrong and hoya fell short in this respect.

I just think as well as the people who stayed there, the middleweights have had so many great fighters venture through it's unreal

 

Cheers! I think as a pure middleweight I have hagler number 1 but there are certainly a lot of better fighters who fought at the weight

 

Mate, that is no way to speak to anyone nevermind an older gentleman. What would you do if someone spoke that that to your father or grandfather? There are other ways of getting your point across:-(

 

You're saying that like D.T. has a family. Clearly he was an unwanted adopted *******.

 

thats fair enough.he's my No.1

 

Is this thread serious? If so, YES his top 2 and one of my top three fighters ever!

 

Do you even know anything about Freddie Steele?Marvin Hagler is my 2nd favorite fighter ever but I would never even debate this because I know very little of Freddie Steele.Burt Bienstock is an elite poster that has forgotten more about boxing than the vast majority of boxing fans(including myself)will ever know.He didn't disrespect you,therefore,you shouldn't disrespect him.Btw,Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler are the 2 best middleweights I've seen in my lifetime.I don't enough about the old-time elites like Mickey Walker,so can't honestly debate about this one way or another.