Prime Holmes vs. Prime Foreman

My sentiments exactly!

 

Oops !

Misprint.

My post should have read:

Holmes could outbox Foreman, if he got the chance. But if this fight is fought with the Foreman in existence between the First Frazier and Ali fight, I believe Foreman wins by an early KO.

My point was that Foreman became 'beatable' after Zaire.

It took an Ali to pull that off and crush George's spirit and confidence for a while. If you could transport PRIME Holmes to say, late 73 or early 74, I believe Big George would KO him early.

I could be wrong. There's no way to tell for sure.

 

Holmes in 11.

 

Holmes size (length), chin, overall skills, and outstanding jab play the perfect foil to Foreman.

Holmes stops him in the 13th.

 

they should have fought in the 90s.

if they fought then, I think Foreman wins.

prime-prime, Im not sure who wins

 

Foreman always had trouble with boxers. To say Ali did him in with what he went on to accomplish doesn't make much sense to me. Foreman was still the same Foreman style-wise, and destroyed the same type of fighters the same way. Outboxers he always had trouble with. He didn't have the speed to walk Holmes down, nor the ability to close the gap and avoid punishment, you had to be within range for him to damage you. If you think he beats Holmes, I assume you think he easily beats any other ATG Heavyweight, considering Holmes is the worst possible matchup for him.

 

I think Holmes would be even more of a bad matchup than Ali was. Holmes jab was more punishing and his right was a bigger punch than Ali had in his arsenal. I think he would bust Foreman up.

 

Nope.

I have him losing to prime Ali, Prime Louis, and possibly prime Lennox. I have him at 3 or 4 on my ATG list.

My point re Jimmy Young fight was that the aura of invincibility that Foreman had was gone by the time he faced Young. Larry is five or six on my alltime list but I believe prime Foreman WOULD have walked him down and KO'd him.

Larry was a good boxer but he could be intimidated and George could intimidate.

 

Larry could be intimidated in his prime by who? Aura of invincibility has not a thing to do with it if you can be figured out. Foreman could be figured out. Young beat the same Foreman that Ali fought, just without the aura. Still, Young simply outboxed him, and Holmes couldn't?

Your point seems to be that Foreman was different because he was more intimidating, although the same fighter, and that somehow Holmes would be intimitaded by a guy he can keep on the end of his jab and move on all day. I disagree. Strongly.

Foreman would've likely beaten Louis though, I simply don't get your reasoning if you think Louis is gonna walk straight to Foreman and outpunch him when that is Foreman's strong point, but you think Holmes can't outbox him when that is Foreman's weak point. Makes not a whole lotta sense.

 

Larry all day. Forman would eat his jab and get handley outboxed.

Holmes UD

 

Style wise it's a 50-50. Either Holmes out boxes Foreman and wins a decision or Foremans right hand knocks Holmes the freak out.

 

Pre-Ali Foreman. That's may whole point. Prime Holmes didn't face a monster like that version of Foreman.

IMO, it does. When you have a fighter with Foreman's record and aura, it changes the psychological equation a bit. And sometimes a fight is decided or at least heavily influenced by psychological factors.

Fairly meaningless statement, considering that the aura was part of Foreman's pre-Ali arsenal. (Just as a similar aura was part of Tyson's arsenal, pre Douglas).

IMO, Young would have gone down to Foreman if they'd fought in 73.

Prime Holmes could probably have beaten the version of Foreman that Young beat.

...again, my point is that he WASN'T the same fighter. You are not putting any stock into the mental aspect of the game, a game that is often very much mental.

He probably could not have kept Foreman at the end of that Jab. Foreman had a better chin than anyone prime Holmes faced, except for Cobb. And if Cobb had Foreman's power, that outcome might have been different.

Louis' boxing skills were IMO, superior to Holmes in most aspects of the game. And he had more power at his disposal.

Prime Holmes was never hit with the kind of shots prime Foreman threw.

 

Foreman faced no boxers like Holmes, but when he did, he showed big weaknesses. Holmes faced a punccher like Foreman before, and took his best shots.

Again, you seem to be of the mind that Holmes is mentall weak or something. If Holmes showed mental weakness in some fights, you would have a point, but when did he? You just seem to think Foreman would intimidate him so badly it would win the fight for him. I choose to base the fight more off of styles, especially considering we have a man here who was never intimidated.

Here's what I'll say to this, Tyson was better pre-Douglas because of his trainers and his conditions. Even leading up to Douglas, he wasn't as good as in the late 80's. Leading up to Douglas, he was capable of being beaten, and was, by a mediocre fighter. Foreman was the same after Ali in terms of style that he was prior to Ali, unlike Tyson with Douglas.

Who knows? My point is simply this, Foreman was, and showed it often, a limited fighter, especially to a Holmes type boxer. Holmes was not a mentall weak, easily intimidated, or easily stopped fighter, so your basing damn near your entire analysis on the intimidation factor for Foreman when the styles matchup is so out of his favor is out of line.

He could've, and would've, beaten that version and likely any.

That's the thing, I am, you're simply putting far TOO much into it. If Holmes was mentally weak, I would understand, but he was not, at all, and he took what someone like Shavers could dish out, so he could take what Foreman dished out.

Foreman's chin was not as good in his younger days as in his older days, oddly enough. He was rocked by Ali, Lyle, etc, whereas in his latter days he took combos from Holyfield flush and ate them. A chin has nothing to do with dealing with a good jab though, or a good mover/boxer, so I don't see the relevance anyway.

Holmes was taller, with the better reach, the better chin, the far better jab, the better footwork, etc. Louis was a better puncher, that is it. His style still plays much more into the hands of Foreman than Holmes's.

Shavers, again.

My main point is this: You seem to throw the style matchup out the window in favor of the mental aspect and the aura that Foreman brings, neglecting the fact that he was not exactly dealing with a puss or someone who could be intimidated easily, or ever showed signs of it. Hell, a past it Holmes was not intimidated by a prime Tyson, just outgunned. Foreman's aura is not gonna win him a fight, especially against someone who holds such a strong stylistic advantage, and someone who would not be as intimidated/effected by Foreman's aura as the others he faced. Hell, Lyle went to war with him, not intimidated in the least, and Holmes will be?

 

Both fighters a bit overrated in terms of H2H but I will pick Holmes here. Ali, Lewis and HOlyfield beat both of them though.

 

Really ?

How about Frazier and Norton.

Many would say that they had the same general level of boxing skill as Holmes.

And neither made it to the end of the second round.

Frazier even had the psychological ADVANTAGE of being the undefeated, undisputed heavyweight champion.

Who would that be?

I'm not saying intimidation would be the ONLY factor, but IMO, it would be enough of a factor to offset Holmes superior boxing skills.

And Larry was VERY intimidated by Tyson. That was nearly as much a factor there as was his age. Watch his face from entering the ring until the KO.

Intimidation.

Tyson was letting his discipline in training slip pre Douglas, and that contributed to his loss to Douglas. But Tyson himself said (after McBride) that his heart hadn't been in it since his first loss.

Tyson lost because

a) everyone is beatable under the right conditions

b) He was letting things slip in the manner you pointed out.

But that actually reinforces my point. Tyson suffered his first loss because he was letting things slip.

Foreman suffered HIS firs loss because Ali found a way to beat him.

Even your point seems to be that the Tyson loss was due to Tyson.

But the Foreman loss was not due to Foreman. He was the same guy that had just stopped Norton and Frazier. That loss was due to Ali.

And good as Holmes was he was no Ali, neither in terms of skill nor ring smarts nor mental toughness. And probably didn't have Ali's ability to absorb punishment.

No. I'm saying that together with his formidable power and jaw, and the aura he projected, IMO he would have stopped Larry early.

Holmes was not mentally weak, but in his prime he never face d a Foreman. And when he did face a similar monster, he WAS intimidated.

(The same thing played out when the more skilled Patterson faced Liston. He was mentally tough too, against other opponents. But Liston had his bowels in knots with fear when they met).

As i've already stated, he doesn't have to be mentally weak to be intimidated by a guy like Foreman. Very few fighters (if any) weren't, until they saw him beaten in the jungle.

And Shavers, despite his punching power, was not even in the same league as Foreman when it came to intimidation. When Larry faced him, he'd already been KOd and beaten a number of times.

Foreman was never rocked by Ali until fatigue set in. And Lyle is not part of my argument as that came AFTER Ali. It was very evident from watching the Lyle bout, coming as it did on the heels of the Ali KO, that Ali had broken much of George's invincibility.



Holmes was taller, with the better reach, the better chin, the far better jab, the better footwork, etc. Louis was a better puncher, that is it. His style still plays much more into the hands of Foreman than Holmes's. [/QUOTE]

Louis is not the main point of this, but IMO, he had better footwork than Holmes, better control of the ring and more precise punches than Holmes, and hit harder.
He could also have been KOd by Foreman, but IMO, he would have survived George's early onslaught and went on to a UD or KO.

I've already dealt with the Shavers comparison.

He was very definitely intimidated by Tyson. He might have been able to work through this if he was younger. In fact, I rank prime Holmes as better, h-to-h, than prime Tyson.

But that night, he was intimidated, bigtime.

Two points, both of which I've already stated:

1. I'm not basing my estimation on aura alone (see above).

2. Lyle came AFTER Ali.


Final point.

This is a hypothetical match-up. We can never know how such a fight would have played out. Perhaps , as you feel, and I think possible, Larry would have figured him out and got the UD.

Or , George might have KO'd the guy early, like he did so many others, including a couple of elite fighters.

Neither outcome is outlandish.

It just comes down to opinion.

In this case, you have yours and I have mine.

And both are well within the realm of reasonable possibility.