prime holmes vs prime frazier

Wait your saying Kenny Norton hit as hard as Joe Frazier? Are you kidding me?

 

Not with a hook; but with a right?--YES! Frazier's right was merely okay, while Noton's overhand right was hard........ Right for right, Ken Norton hit harder than Frazier...... Left for left, it's all Frazier there......

:yep

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I see Holmes slicing and dicing Frazier with left jabs and straight rights down the pike, along with some right uppercuts mixed in there.... Plus, Holmes using his legs to utilize the ring... All Frazier has in return is pressure and left-hooks.... By rd. 12, Frazier is a mess with both eyes swollen and blood dripping from his mouth..... Holmes has sore ribs, but is unscathed in the face.... Holmes by 14th round TKO..... Peace...

MR..BILL

 

How does Holmes handle Frazier then? I think Larry would have a very tough time handling Joe's left hook and body attack. He doesn't move as quick as Ali which means Joe has an easier time catching up to him and landing his signature body shots. At the same time, I think Joe has difficulty handling Larry's jab. Prime for prime, I'd still pick 1967 - 1970 Frazier over 1977 - 1982 Holmes.

 

I think its possible that A peak Holmes from about the Norton fight of '78 to the Cooney match of '82, could have eeked out a close decision over a peak Frazier from the Mathis fight of '68 to the FOTC of '71. I would not bet money on it however. Frazier had the right style to trouble great boxers, while Holmes seemed to have the makings of a fighter who struggled with swarmers. Of course I am not about to chalk it up to just that though, as there are clearly other things to be addressed here.

Frazier's signature punch was the left hook, which was not a particularly useful tool against Holmes. Left hooks troubled Ali regularly, whereas Larry's kryptonite was the right. Part of the reason for this was that Holmes actually measured fighters with his constantly extended left hand, perhaps making it difficult to come up and score with the left on the otherside of his body or face. Furthermore, Holmes was a more dangerous fighter on the inside than some credited him as being. On more than several occasions in his career, fighters have had him against the ropes or in a corner, only to get struck by a lightening bolt of an uppercut. Weaver was one of the men to experience this. Frazier was often open to uppercuts and against Holmes I fear he'd get tagged often. Addtionally, while Muhammad Ali's chin may have indeed exceded the recuperative powers of Holmes, Larry's toughness was more than proven against Earnie Shavers, Mike Weaver, Ken Norton, Gerry Cooney, Tim Witherspoon, James Smith, and Ray Mercer - All big punchers who actually had punches that could land on Holmes. It should also be pointed out that of the men I just listed , only a select few met him in his true prime, as Holmes was clearly slipping from about 1983 onward.

On paper it certainly looks like Frazier could and should beat Holmes, and who knows. Maybe he would. He did afterall have one of the best track records against great boxers, though he met the greatest following a 4 year layoff, and lost to him in their next two meetings. I think its fair to say that in their absolute primes, these two go to the scorecards and their would be all kinds of factors that come into play such as ring size, who referees, who judges, who's working the corners, what city, and who each guy spars with in training.....

 

Interesting notion.... Not bad.....:bbb

YES! People can laugh or scoff, but in 1983, Holmes was slipping when he faced a hungry and powerful 219 pound Tim Witherspoon in Vegas..... Spoon was green, but in great shape physically and mentally under Slim Jim Robinson's guidance...... Although green, that MIGHT'VE been Spoon's peak.?.?

I know.. I know... Spoon came back after the '84 loss to Thomas to string some good wins together before getting iced by Smith in 1986 on HBO... But Spoon was a good fighter with power when focused........

I still scored Spoon's fight with Holmes in favor of Holmes, but it was by a mere **** hair.... And, the shots Holmes withstood in rd. 9, showed me that Holmes had a great chin and durability.....

No way in hell did Frazier hit as hard as Spoon did in 1983 at 219 well-tuned pounds..... Spoon had his **** together in '83.......... too bad he got lazy in the summer of '84....

MR.BILL:bbb:good

 

I agree with those that picked Joe, so no need to go there again. Styles make fights and Larry loses this one 4 out of 5 times. Snipes , Weaver , Norton aren't Joe Frazier, Larry doesn't have the power to keep Joe off of him. So I believe Joe's relentless attack wins in the end.

 

Holmes doesn't have the power? What type of bull**** is that?? Holmes hit harder than Ali..... I agree that Holmes was NOT a wicked ass puncher, but, his power was above average....... Frazier would not smile back at Holmes after 3 or 4 rds of eating right hands down the pike.........
:shock:atsch:hey:good

MR.BILL:bbb

 

Norton was not in Frazier class as a puncher with either hand...Norton was an arm puncher...heavily muscled and strong but Frazier had sick power compared to Norton who was unorthodox and fit...Frazier wiped his ass harder than Norton could punch

 

Not with the right.......:-(

MR.BILL:bbb

 

Holmes may have hit harder than Ali but not by much, Larry may have set down on his punches a bit more, but that would make him more vulnerable to Joe also. He also never fought a target that moved as much as Joe did agresivley (again norton, weaver et all) that could bring it relentlessly.

No mistake, I can see Larry winning, but again 4 out of 5 , prime for prime. I favor Frazier imho, I just see a style matchup that favors Frazier

 

Frazier's upper body movement and punch rate was certainly off the charts for a heavyweight. I can't disagree with that, and nor can anyone who has an honest bone in their body. He also fought through 6 knockdowns from a prime Foreman before losing, and battled Ali in Manilla while being almost completely blind for the last few rounds.

While I still feel that a peak Holmes may have barely taken a decision, picking Frazier is definately a sound choice in a bet...

 

Buster Mathis was in-shape back in '68 for Frazier, yet, he still was a slob...... Mathis fought Frazier pretty evenly over the first 10 rds.... Then in rd. 11, Frazier landed a booming hook to end matters.......... No real surprise..... Frazier had stamina and was relentless in '68..... Still, Buster Mathis sorta' paved the way to beat Joe Frazier....... NO! Jimmy Ellis was not to be the guy to do it.... Ellis tried hard, but was too weak and out-gunned.......... Guys like "Ali & Holmes" had the strength, size, skill, durability, power & savy to pull it off against Frazier.........

As for George Foreman, well, he just bombed out Frazier with brute force / power......

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