Prime Holyfield vs Prime Liston

I think they've got tired of making the same points in different threads,year after year.

Come on ,Dude,all baseball fans know that the likes of Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds are probably the most formidable batters who ever stepped up to the plate.
But if you want to compare them to players from previous generations, you have to make certain 'adjustments' and 'corrections'.

 

I think one of the criticisms leveled against Liston was that he didn't quickly bring his arm back if he missed with a punch,offering the opponent the chance to counter .

Also his right was a bit inferior to his left.He timing and accuracy with the right wasn't so good and invariably he had to set up his right-hands with his jab.:think

 

The bottom line is he is suspect against virtually all ATG Heavyweights. He was a terrific Heavyweight. Very talented, very strong, and such a great tool set. Some fighters are tailor made for him, but in the end he has the Tyson effect over him. And even more so for because Tyson was more dominant and much more explosive. I don't really see how anyone can pick Liston confidently over most guys in your top 10 HW list. Yeah, The Dempsey's, Johnson's, Jeffries, and those fighters I could see.

But against Holmes, Ali, Frazier, Tyson, Marciano, Foreman, Holyfield, Lewis... I don't know. He never showed me or us enough to really give him that credit in a dog fight. The Marshall fight shows us something, but not quite enough. Liston legends seems to have grown based more on hearsay and a limited prime/vision of the man...

I pick Holyfield. And not because I don't think Liston is capable. Just because I don't know how you can be confident. H2H he's a great Heavyweight - he falls shorter even in regards to legacy.

 

The pre Ali Liston ,the guy who walked through Cleveland Williams best in 2 fights ,wins this .
Back then Sonny was younger , more mobile, with faster hands, than the slackly trained boozer who fought Ali.
Holyfield has a great chin ,and heart,and it would be his ticker that gets him in to trouble, when tagged he likes to brawl ,wrong move against Sonny,who could box too.
I remember EH against an ancient, fat Foreman, who did not sit down between rounds,EH banged on him all night, but George was still there at the end ,and competitive ,he actually rocked EH a couple of times.
Liston was far superior to that version of George.
Mix in that EH could be tagged regularly by the jab and I see Sonny taking this, possibly by late stoppage.

 

I think that - for whatever reason- Liston was slowing down from 1960,before he fought Patterson. :think

For those who haven't read them,here are Johansson's well argued criticisms of him before the Patterson fight.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1074052/1/index.htm

 

I'm (pleasantly) surprised so many are picking Evander. I also pick him, but do so tentatively.
If this turns out to be a pure boxing match, I'd actually favour Sonny. If it becomes more of a war, I favour Evander.

 

I go for Liston. His peak was pre title, which is often overlooked. His jab was tremendous and would disrupt Holy, Evander would find it hard to settle and would tire. If his power was not enough for Holmes, Foreman or Lewis ( and the first 2 were damn old ) then it will not be enough for Liston. So now he has to outpoint him, well with Listons Jab it ain't gonna happen. Can Holy last the course ? Bert Cooper hurt him badly, Bowe did in all their fights. Liston was as hard a single shot hitter as he faced. I can see Holy struggling with the jab and at some point being hit with a big right and being stopped.

 

I'm with McVey on this - if a prime 208 Holy finds a 42 year old fat Foreman a stubborn nut to crack (aswell as a 42 year old Holmes) and actually gets shaken up a few times along the way then I can only see problems for him against say a 218-220 prime pre-title Liston.

Butch Coolidge - Just to clear something up Holyfield was not 3 inches taller than Liston at all - Holyfield when he moved up to heavyweight was listed as 6'2" and I remember some sports writers commenting humourously how all the computer training had amazingly not only increased his body weight by 20-25lbs but had also increased his height because as a cruiserweight he was always 6'1" hahaha - and Liston was always 6' 1 1/2" so that would make Sonny the taller man by half an inch.

Liston was a beast compared with Holy - much bigger naturally (Holy had to bulk up from 185ish) Liston was a natural 220pounder with an 84 inch reach and 15 inch fists - the giveaway is Holys skinny legs - if Liston bulked up you be talking 235ish - naturally Holy is more an Ez Charles/Floyd Patterson frame.

Liston for me had everything on Holy for me - much better longer powerhouse jab - much the busier boxer at range, brutal to the body, Holyfields jab wouldn't worry Liston although i can see Holyfield getting his a attention a few times with his fast hands but in reality Holyfield was so far from being a Cassius Clay it's not even true and Holyfield would be drawn into too many punch outs - Holyfield was not a smart fighter and Liston was an excecutioner when it came to punching - Foreman was too strong for Holy but just didn't have the speed or reflexes to make count - Liston would be similarly too strong but would have both the speed of hand and foot and range of punching to punish Holy continuously - if I'm giving Holyfield the benefit of the doubt I'd have sneaky feeling he might be able to hang in for the full 12 but my head tells me that eventually Liston would lower the boom and finish a bemused Evander

 

I'm leaning towards Liston. I think his jab would keep Evander from comming in whenever he wanted, and Liston had the reach. Evander wouldn't be able to push him around, he'd have to do what he did to Foreman and throw some punches and get out, but I don't think he'd be able to do this enough to beat Sonny. It'd be a tough fight for both, but I think Sonny's jab would give the edge to Liston.

 

I've never heard any baseball fan say that about McGuire/Bonds, and I don't know what the heck that has to do with anything.

 

How exactly did heavyweights become bigger from the mid 90s onwards? I don't think it's because they were more 'physically talented'.
How was Holyfield able to physically transform himself from a cruiserweight into a solid heavyweight?
It's all interlinked.

 

I still don't see what this is saying, or why it has any impact on the topic.

 

Holyfield wasn't the 'same size' as Liston,if you consider bone structure.
Also he almost certainly- like most elite athletes of the present day-used testosterone and human growth hormone to bulk up his frame.
So its not really simple to compare the sizes of fighters from different ages when they didn't have access to some of these supplements.

So, when making hypothetical match-ups, I feel it's more interesting to use other criterion.