Prime Holyfield vs Prime Muhammad Ali

You used Tyson as a proxy for Muhammad Ali. Is it your argument that they are physically and stylistically similar? I have seen all or part of every fight of Ali that has been on film. I'm sure you have seen film of him too. Have you ever seen him fight in the manner in the youtube you provided?

 

But he never quit. Liston quit twice against powder puncher Ali.

Evander >> Liston

 

Ali was bigger, faster and the better boxer with just as good of a chin/heart. Holyfield has no advantages to press. Ali was certainly stronger as well if we're talking respective primes.

 

Stop warping things. It’s easy enough to make an argument rather then say BS like “scared Tyson” “fat Bowe”

 

Holyfield had a more complete toolset, greater punch arsenal. Holyfield was a very strong, muscular 210 lbs. The difference between Ali and Holy is marginal.

In his prime he didn't fight anybody close to Holyfield.

 

You can make that argument, however all evidence points to Liston having had a legitimate shoulder injury the first time.
And he did vacillate the second time when Walcott was not enforcing the rules & he had mob death threats & Wlacott listened to Fleisher who had no authority. If he got a count, who knows?
Although these fights were later than his prime.

Although it is fair to submit this as evidence. I recall a thread in another boxing website that Evander disgusted someone by quitting in a fight: IF so it was completely atypical & not indicative of his fighting spirit.
While Liston fighting on with a jaw broken early in his fight with Marshall was too, so nobody was likely to quit.

But what I do not like is you not being intellectually honest in shifting the goalposts to another argument.
NOT that it is wrong to do so or I mind that you disagree.

But you ignored me dismantling your argument of Holyfield slugging against Lewis & Bowe, so he would beat Liston-even by slugging!
I showed he only had a single, close victory in their FIVE (5) fights. AIded inadvertently by the 'Fan Man".


IF you are most valusing & trying to get to The Truth: you do not ignore that your points were completely invalid.

Face it; you psychologically identify with Holyfield, so you will say anything to justify him winning.
Now he MIGHT win-at least if he boxed wisely.

But as I said before & you also ignored, all indications are that he used steroids to get to the size he needed to be in order to be a great HW in the modern era.
So WITH PEDs, while I would not make him the favorite, one can easily make that case legitimately.

But you want to be respected as dedicated to being fair in debate & not a "fanboy" type, you gotta stop ignoring arguments that are inconvenient & saying whatever you think props up your man...

Pretending as if people have not gone to the trouble to make or even respond to YOUR arguments.
Throwing up whatever other tenuous case you can--->
Regrardless of whether it is legitimate.

 

If Ali was such a powder puncher why is he the only boxer to stop Oscar Bonavena and George Foreman in 139 fights? He has a higher stoppage percentage than Holyfield. Did he hit like The Acorn? No, but Larry Holmes said before you roll a guy you have to get him drunk first.

 

Just how I see it Journeyman. I guess it is a bit disrespectful. Sorry.

 

Correct, maybe Norton though, but Ken never had the stigma of PED’s hanging over him.
Holyfield, juiced up, made hard work over 24 long rounds of decisioning veterans, Holmes and Foreman.
This doesn’t inspire much enthusiasm of Evander beating a prime Ali, if the bout was scrupulously fought, minus Holly’s “additives.”

 

And? Foreman was used like a mobile punching bag. Holyfield beat both of them handily.

 

Aided by Peds, even then, Foreman gave him rough moments and he never dominated Holmes, in a 12 rounder, I attended.

 

His PED taking has nothing to do with the discussion. We always talk about how fighters were, not hypothetical scenarios.

Muhammad Ali had rough moments with Cooper and Jones.

 

It has everything to do with the discussion, there’s nothing hypothetical about Evander’s relationship with PED’s.
How did he become “a strong muscular 210 lbs” then?

 

We are wondering about a fight between the PED enhanced Holyfield with Ali, since a PED enhanced HW Holyfield is all we know.

 

Ali was clearly better in the 1960's-as those who fought him both times like Chuvalo noted.
he did not have better endurance in the 1970's-the opposite is true.
His upper body was a little stronger. His legs less so (mainly he lost a lot of his preternatural foot speed)-as the announcer at the start of FOTC noted when he came in only marginally heavier-with marginally more body fat-his weight had been "redistributed".

He was great with his more limited physical skills through 1975.
But losing so much (mostly foot) speed, endurance/being able to dance for 15, & having a lower work rate could not be fully compensated for.