prime jack jonshon vs prime john l. sullivan

Using a source 61 years later than has no recoding? I kind of like my report better a: ) I predict you might be rather busy spinning things in this thread. At the very least Kalassin has a chance to learn things.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9F0DEED61F31E733A25751C1A9669D946897D6CF

 

How was Tyson more technically advanced than Ali?
So you think the fact that Johnson was technically more advanced than Sullivan means nothing?
Lets just make this a one of debate between us :good


Which defeats did Johnson have in his prime ? Are you referring to his dsq to Jeanette who never managed it again, though they fought 7 times.

 

It was a taped interview.
What is a recoding?
Forgot your medication again?
The interview was with one of the participants of the sparring session [Smith] .I think, given that fact, most posters would find that pretty compelling , and convincing information, but be my guest ,you carry on and educate Kalassin.
I do not think it will take him long to get the measure of you

 

Hart for sure. Possibly O'Brien who edged him in a 6 roudn match accoring to at least one paper. Jim Battling Johnson is the winner if you go on news reads. The draw seems bogus.

But you asked who did Johnson lose to in his prime? In his own words Marvin Hart. I now you have read this and completely disregard Jack Johnson's own words at times, so I'm posting it here for Kalassin.


JOHNSON VS HART:

Here it is, it's from a Dec. 1963 article "The case for and against Marvin Hart" reprinted in the June 1989 issue of Boxing Illustrated:

Johnson, in his autobiography In The Ring And Out says surprisingly little about the fight, and such remarks as he did make are caustic: "The fight was not an auspicious one for me, as Hart got the decision, owing, as Tad, the famous sportswriter says, to the fact that in his excitement the referee pointed to the wrong winner." Later, however, Jack, who never was one to heap accolades on an opponent, did admit: "I don't know of any fighter who was better than me when I was in my prime. But there was one who really beat me... and he beat me good. I'm talking about Marvin Hart."

 

Good Old Rainman:good
The piece you refer to was NOT written by Jack Johnson, does not come from his autobiography ,or any biography about him.
It comes via a very circuitous route , from a series of "memoirs", purporting to be written by Johnson,they were not,they were written by a French hack journalist, unsourced, unamed, in French ,in 1911,and never saw the light of day in the States until 1918,when ,they surfaced,"translated","revised",and repackaged as," My Life And Battles", in a book form .
The fairy tales in this book include stories of Johnson as a politician in Galveston Texas, and Kangaroo Hunting in Australia ,both figments of the hack's imagination.It is a cobbled collection of fairy tales ,translated and rehashed bull****.
I can see why you would want to believe it , but please do not insult others intelligence by regurgitating it here.
Kalasinn will indeed learn something here,he will learn how rabidly desperate you are to traduce Jack Johnson's every living moment.

 

[quote=combatesdeboxeo;8214810]you never used the word "technically". you said more advanced. and anyway i think that a prime tyson had better skill than ali, ali was naturally an athlete he had better reflexes, he could take a punch, he was fast like a hell, but he did bad many things, (hands down, he almost never did hit the body,bad hooks,bad uppers..), i would say that tyson in his prime had better skill. walcott or charles had much better skill than marciano and rocky did beat them. it is not matter if jonhson was more skilled than sullivan, the boxing is not just skill.
21 years old jonhson lost by tko in 5,23 years old jonhson lost by ko in 3, 23 years old jonhson lost by points,27 years old jonhson lost by points. he lost against average boxers.

john l lost in his end just 1 fight against jim corbett an agt[/quote]

Actually I said scientifically more advanced.
The question still holds,how is Tyson more scientifically advanced than Ali ?
You state that the fact that Johnson was more scientifically advanced than Sullivan means nothing.
To be frank, I see no point in discussing this further with you.

 

I agree that Johnson would have had an easy toime with Sullivans oponents under Queensbury rules, but Johnson never fought under LPR rules.

Therefore there has to be a strong asumption in favour of fighters who did fight under that ruleset.

 

And this is on the basis of Sullivan's three bare knuckle fights?
Two against a middleweight,who floored him in their first fight,and went 39 rds to a standstill draw with him it the second?
The other against a man ,[Kilrain ] , whose chief asset was stamina, a Kilrain who spent half the fight with Sullivan clutching him around the neck ,the other half trying to avoid Sullivan's attempts to knee him in the stomach,[he actually trod on Kilrain twice] .KIlrain was also dropped by Mitchell and made to look a c**t by Corbett.
That's not enough for me to give John L an edge here.
He gets comprehensively out boxed and outclassed imo ,and Johnson was probably stronger in the clinches too. I like John L ,but I dont think he matches up well at all with Johnson,and the lack of gloves ,distance of the fight don't seem a big factor to me ,except that Sullivan would take a protracted beating.
Other Sullivan opponents like Flood would not land punches on Johnson, he was light years in advance of them for ability.

 

Johnson would cake walk it with or without gloves IMO - I actually think Johnson's approach would translate fairly well for Bareknuckle fighting actually - plus I may be wrong but I'm sure I read somewhere that John L actually detested bareknuckle fighting (much prefered gloved fighting because it allowed for more actual punching and more knockouts)??

 

Sullivan would almost certainly have chosen to fight Johnson with gloves given the choice. He had no desire to fight with bare knuckles, and only did so when forced to.

What we are comparing, is a fighter who was great with gloves but merely world class with bare knuckles (Sullivan), and another fighter who was great with gloves but not even an amateur with bare knuckles (Johnson).