Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

Hugh D McIntosh the promoter of the Johnson /Burns fight, visited Johnson's training camp, Johnson told him he was a sure thing, and McIntosh bet the gate receipts of the Burns fight on Jack , he made a fortune.

 

Prime vs Prime I'm going with Jeffries by Ko. Jeffries never lost in his prime and against common opponents (although their are many variables such as age) Jeffries fared better. Jack Johnson had great defense but iffy chin. Common opponents, Choyniski, Hank Griffin, Mexican Pete Everett, Bob Fitzsimmons(washed up at 44 when he fought Johnson) Styles make fights and maybe Johnsons style just has big Jeff's number but that's conjecture. Based on Common opponents I'll take Jeff. It's a travesty that so many black fighters were denied the rightful place to challenge for the title during this time in American history. I also find it sad for Jeffries despite his social shortcomings, and abhorrant viewpoints on race, that his legacy is tarnished by 1 loss more than any fighter in history. A fight in which he came out of a 6yr retirement to fight an alltime great under blazing sun. The man was a shell.

 

its all on the distance imo, the more rounds there are the more i like jeffries.

 

Johnson is more proven over extended distances compare their respective resumes.

 

yes, that is true, but i tend to think jeffries had at least equal stamina, with the fact he would not be outweighed/outstrengthed, he wouldn't tire as quickly from the clinches as lot of johnson's opponents.
The fact the video is of old jeffries, and he is in the fight for a while may actually lead me to favour jeffries more than i should, but there doesn't seem much doubt that was a significantly diminished version.

 

The problem with this assertion is that the reality is exactly the opposite! Johnson's long distance fights were over men bigger and younger.
Jeffries were over men much smaller and older,except for fellow novice Ruhlin who was the only one to be near his size. Johnson carried Jeffries he did not go to work on him until the last couple of rounds, that is the opinion of Burns,Fitz,and the referee Rickard.

Fitz said Johnson could have ended the fight whenever he wanted to.
As early as the 7th rd Corbett told Jeffries brother "your brothers getting licked" and they wanted to stop it.
Johnson said after the fight ,
"I was having fun in there, I could have fought for hours"

 

Not when he's in there with a live body. See his losses to Hart and Willard. Or the Griffin fights.

Even you said Johnson would not likely beat Jeffries when he was champion.

 

i see what your saying, i meant jeffries himself compared to johnson's opposition, not comparing opponents between them,

johnson over mcvey would be the best result for either above 15 rds i think? but jeffries did have the latest ko, in a title fight too.

ive got no problem with picking johnson, if the thread had said 15 rounds i would have too,
neither fought a man particularly similar to their opponents in this matchup, so i don't think I can say johnson will have the better stamina just off the resume's, but i feel ok 2 say he had a worse chin(not bad just comparativley worse than jeffries).

since i have seen and read less on jeffries maybe i overrate him physically, but it looks like johnson landed hard shots long before the 15th. (not that johnson couldn't have finished it earlier if he turned it up)

that johnson could have fought for hours vs old jeffries is true, but also a boast, and not so relevant to him fighting younger jeffries.

 

Johnson went 20 rds 11 times ,against young big men, many of whom outweighed him by a considerable margin.
Klondike, JimJohnson, Griffin,Hart and he went 26 rds with giant Willard when he was 37.

Jeffries went 20 rds 3 times and 25 rds only once.
The 20 rounders were against Choynski 67lbs lighter, Ruhlin 18lbs lighter,Sharkey 27lbs lighter.

He went 23 rds with Corbett who was 30 odd lbs lighter and 10 years older, He went 25 rds with Sharkey who was nearly 30lbs lighter and 6 inches shorter

This thread is about prime for prime and in that case Johnson wins every time imo.

The Proof Of The Pudding

Jun 25

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Galveston, Tx D 20 -Some sources report 6/28/00Oct George Lawler Galveston, Tx KO 10Nov Josh Mills Memphis, Tn W 12Dec 27

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Memphis, Tn TK 14 -Some sources report 12/28/00 1901Feb 25 Joe Choynski Galveston, Tx LK 3 -Both fighters were arrested after the fightMar 22 –Johnson and Choynski were released from jail after each posted a $1,000 bondApr 26 Billy Stift Denver, Co D 10Nov 4

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Bakersfield, Ca L 20Dec 27

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Oakland, Ca D 151902Feb 7 Dan Murphy Waterbury, Ct KO 10Feb 22 Ed Johnson Galveston, Tx KO 4Mar 7

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Oakland, Ca KO 4Apr 6 Bob White in California W 15May 16

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Los Angeles, Ca KO 5May 26

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Memphis, Tn KO 13Jun 4 Billy Stift Chicago, Il D 10Jun 20

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Los Angeles, Ca D 20Jul 6

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in California D 20Sep 3 “Mexican” Pete Everett Victor, Co W 20Oct 21

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Los Angeles, Ca TK 12Oct 31 George Gardner San Francisco, Ca W 20Dec 4

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Los Angeles, Ca WF 81903Feb 3

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Los Angeles, Ca W 20

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Feb 27

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Los Angeles, Ca W 20

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Apr 16

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Boston, Ma W 10May 11

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Philadelphia, Pa KO 3Jul 31

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Philadelphia, Pa ND 6Oct 27

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Los Angeles, Ca W 20

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Dec 11

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Colma, Ca W 201904Feb 6

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Philadelphia, Pa ND 6Feb 16

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Philadelphia, Pa ND 6Apr 22

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San Francisco, Ca KO 20Jun 2

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Chicago, Il W 6Oct 18

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Los Angeles, Ca KO 21905Mar 28

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San Francisco, Ca L 20Apr 25

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Philadelphia, Pa KO 4May 3

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Philadelphia, Pa KO 4May 9

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Brewster and Puritty were very large fighters themselves by most eras' standards.

With that being said, size matters a little less in a Johnson/Jeffries bout because the tiny gloves are an equalizer. As the gloves enlarged, smaller fighters no longer carried the pop to really hurt heavyweights like Fitzsimmons and Choynski could.

 

I think that Jack Johnson simply had a bad bout when losing to Marvin Hart, much like Joe Louis did when he fought Max Schmeling for the first time. It may be that Jim Jeffries would beaten Johnson if they fought in 1904 or 1905, but it appeared that Jeffries often "let himself go" in between bouts by 1904 and really had difficulty getting back in shape as a result.

- Chuck Johnston

 

I get the feeling that Johnson would have won. Obviously in a far more competitive fight,though. Too skilled for 'Jeff'

 

I've never entirely understood why people believe that Johnson was some sort of modern boxing wizard compared to Jeffries. His style is just as primitive compared to modern fighters. Moreso, in many ways.

By their own era's stylistic standards, late-career Jeffries and Johnson were both considered very skilled fighters.

 

Chuck,

Something tells me Jeffries would be in shape if the money was high for a Johnson fight and he signed pre 1906.

Johnson had too many poor performances. He was Ko'd by a light heavyweight ( Choynski ), floored by a super middle, ( Ketchel ) and some say out boxed over 6 rounds vs another middle ( O'Brien ). He also quit in fights, and was booed in several others.

Johnson was out worked/ beaten by Hart, beaten by Griffin. He was KO'd by Klondike. He had a close match with a mediocre Moran. He was lucky according to the NY Times to beat Jim Battling Johnson. None of these guys were in Jeffries class. Yet, look at what happened. Or look what GunBoat Smith, who deserved a title shot did when he meet Johnson in a 4 rd ex match in 1909. NY times reported it as a TKO type of result as Johnson was down and dazed, and his manager had to stop the action.

When Johnson did not fight the old, small or in-experienced on say a top ten level, I see too many instances where he was suspect. See any of the above examples.


Sure he beat Sam McVey...when McVey was a teenager.

Sure he beat Sam Langford, when he was 20 and but 156 pounds.

Sure he beat Joe Jeannette, when he was a novice with a losing record, and other times not much better than .500

I used to think the above were great wins for Johnson. Then I checked the dates and ages of the fighters.

But like I said who did he really beat that was both good and in their prime, which I'll define as capable coming off a win over a top 5 heavyweight opponent?

Burns? Sure, but he was 5'7", and only 168 pounds.

 

Those who watch the films know.