prime James Toney vs prime Rocky Marciano (12 rounds)

Savold was 36 years old, had over 35 career losses, ten by stoppage and was a trial horse at this point in his inactive career. We're not talking the young 1940's version that stopped Lou Nova .. why is it you cannot seperate names from primes ?

Pat Valentino ? Another great ... This is the point, the period was filled with small, dceent but nothing special fighters ..

 

I'm favouring Toney in this one actually. Good enough defence not to be hit flush too many times, good enough chin to withstand the punishment. Style wise Marciano is made for Toney, he'd lean against him and wail away. The fight, if held today, would be stopped on cuts after let's say 10 rounds. Marciano would be a pizza face by then.

 

Toney has a great chin , was very tough and slick on defense ... that's why I think he survives ... however he has questionable stamina at any weight, fairly low punch output and was never a big hitter ... Rocky would walk through his power and throw sixty to seventy punches per round, every round ... I simply se him outpunching Toney by a wide margin ..

 

Which Top hw's did Patterson ever ko? None. The best guys he ever stepped into the ring with were Liston*2 and Ali*2 and he was stopped in all four encounters

Are you saying thats its possible for a fighter aged around 40 years whose had almost 200 fights not to have any wear and tear? Thats a lot of punishment to the head and body not to mention the countless rounds in sparring

Are you saying that the Moore who stepped into the ring was below the version of the Moore that stepped into the ring with Marciano?

If Toney fought during the days of same day weigh in (with no smw or cw divisons), he would of started as a lhw (89) and would of moved up to hw around 94. He also walked around at 200+ between fights as well

Don Cockell wasnt very good, that guy looked like the michelin man

A 250 lbs man hits harder than a 185 lbs

 

"Which Top hw's did Patterson ever ko? None. The best guys he ever stepped into the ring with were Liston*2 and Ali*2 and he was stopped in all four encounters"

He stopped Moore, Johansson, Harris, Jackson, Slade, and Cooper. If you think Patterson's career is defined by ONLY Ali and Liston..you really shouldn't be on a boxing forum.

"Are you saying thats its possible for a fighter aged around 40 years whose had almost 200 fights not to have any wear and tear? Thats a lot of punishment to the head and body not to mention the countless rounds in sparring"

-Should we bring Maricano's bum leg, bad left hand, and other previous injuries into the discussion or how about his recent facial reconstruction surgery? WHAT ABOUT ROCKY'S WEAR AND TEEEEEAR? BLAH BLAH BLAH. His body was a wreck and this would be his last fight. We don't talk about that because Maricano was still boxing at an elite level.

-So going into the Marciano fight, Moore was 40-1-1 since 1950. He was actually coming off three of the biggest wins of his career up to that point. So I ask you again, where is the evidence of wear and tear? It doesn't matter if Moore was 50 and had 1000 fights, if he was fighting at the heighest level of his career than he was fighting at the highest level of his career. Moore had so much left in the tank he was still beating hot top 5 heavyweights as late as 62.

"Are you saying that the Moore who stepped into the ring was below the version of the Moore that stepped into the ring with Marciano?"

Wow...ok? :huh Guess that says it all, have a good day sir.


So how many top 5 6'3" 210 lb fighters did James Toney stop and beat into a stretcher at his best, let alone being on the physical decline nearing 50? But....but...but Toney looked good against Jirov? Please. So sad, to see a legend like Moore's name dragged into the dirt for the sake of discrediting the little white Champion that had his number. Really pathetic.

 

You said he was a ko machine, I'm saying he wasn't. Those guys you listed are not great fighters either, if Cooper was fighting today he would be in the same class as Frank Bruno, Johansson maybe in the same class as Rahman

What has this got to do with anything? I'm talking about a comparison between Moore and Toney and now you are talking about Marciano's wear and tear?

When Toney stepped into the ring against Jirov, he had around 63 fights and had never been koed. He was 35 years old

When Moore stepped into the ring against Marciano he was around 40 years old and had around 197 fights and had been koed 3 times

Which fighter do you think had more wear and tear on them?

The fact that he was still fighting at the elite level doesn't mean he never had any wear and tear on him either. The point I was making is this, Toney isn't going to get koed by Marciano.

After he fought Marciano, he went on a 11 fight winning streak, according to your logic this still means his still fighting at the elite level, right?

None

You Marciano fans are so sensitive it's funny. Where have I put down Marciano? I said that if Toney wasn't koed by naturally bigger guys than Marciano, the chances of him getting koed by Marciano are not likely.

People here have said that because Marciano koed Moore, then he would ko Toney, I have argued that's not true either. According to you thats means im now dragging Moore's name through the dirt..... ok then:smoke

 

With all due respect rofl:rofl:rofl) you should stay in the lounge.

 

Marciano was to smart a fighter to chase Toney's head early on. He'd go for the arms, hips or whatever he could hit until Toney started to tire, then the bombs would climb higher. The only defense for this is movement and Toney was not much of a mover, definitely not at HW.

Toney would likely win the first couple of rounds, but sooner a later Marciano's wrecking ball fighting will get to him. Lasting the distance would be a good result for Toney.

 

"You said he was a ko machine, I'm saying he wasn't. Those guys you listed are not great fighters either, if Cooper was fighting today he would be in the same class as Frank Bruno, Johansson maybe in the same class as Rahman "

Saying Moore and Johansson are not great fighters isn't helping your credibility. And yes, Patterson was an aggressive knock out artist in the 50s, he was the master of the Gazelle Punch for crying out loud. This shouldn't even be questioned. If one punch knockouts of contenders doesn't meet your criteria for being a KO machine.....

"-When Moore stepped into the ring against Marciano he was around 40 years old and had around 197 fights and had been koed 3 times

Which fighter do you think had more wear and tear on them?"

Again, you can propose theoretical bull**** all you want, the burden of proof is on you. If Moore didn't show signs of wear and tear or decreased effectiveness in the ring...than you are drowning in insignificant waters.

"After he fought Marciano, he went on a 11 fight winning streak, according to your logic this still means his still fighting at the elite level, right?"

The overall quality in Moore's opposition drastically dipped off after Marciano despite remaining in active fighter. He was down once in 40 fights leading up to Marciano....He was down over 11 times in his next 40 fights. There is certainly a cut off point where Moore began to finally wear down and decline, the Patterson and Marciano losses being the end of his prime run.

"You Marciano fans are so sensitive it's funny. Where have I put down Marciano? I said that if Toney wasn't koed by naturally bigger guys than Marciano, the chances of him getting koed by Marciano are not likely."

Right...if Ruiz, Peter, and Jirov can't get the job done...what hope does Marciano have.

And really..if power punchers that hold 20-30+ lbs over Moore like Baker and Valdez can't stop Moore....what hope does Rocky have?

Moore wasn't stopped because of "wear and tear." He was stopped because he said Maricano was the strongest man he ever faced and his 80 punch swarms were like fighting a boat motor. Toney would have the same problem minus the big right hand that could potentially keep Rocky in check.

 

All his points are valid. The only things that prevent me from being decisive is Marciano's workrate and power.

 

Does anyone realistically think James Toney can hang with a 1955 Archie Moore, let alone Rocky Marciano?

 

I think James would hold his own, like he would against Marciano, but both times I don't think he had what it took to beat them.

 

I don't think Toney was as good as Bivins, and Moore gave him 4 of his 5 career KO losses. Anyone who thinks Toney is an alltime great above 170 should have their head examined or do more research on boxing before the 2000s. One great performance against the limited Jirov, King of the Barren Cruiser division and not even pound for pound ranked doesn't make the cut.

 

Where have I said that Moore wasnt a great fighter, why do you keep insisting I have said things I haven't as well?
James Toney is a great fighter, competed in 5 weight classes, hofer, 3 divison world champion and has a record of 72-6-3. Yet all youve done his trash his resume can I say......double standards?

When I think of ko machines I think of guys like McClellan, Benn and Jackson guys with ko rates of over 70%+

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8DXiCr3-jE&feature=player_embedded[/ame]
Also he would of been 10 years past his physical prime, which would of meant that his natural levels of testosterone would of been at a decreased level. How's that?

Also a fact which is over looked here, is that Toney defense is only superficialy similar to Moores.
Moore:
Go to 0:48
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w1Hxuo6Cik[/ame]
When Moore shoulder rolls he tends to stand straight up and is squared of against Marciano. And that is the reson why he was getting hit with Marciano's right hooks.
Toney:
Go to 0:15
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCapKpQ8dYo[/ame]
When Toney shoulder rolls he has his body at a 45 degree angle to Jirov, also he leans backwards which raises his left shoulder and pulls his head far away from Jirov. This is the reason that Jirov's right hands rarely if ever hit Toney

In other words those clubbing rights which Marciano used to wear down Moore will be hitting Toney with much less frequency, if ever

Fair enough

See my point above on how Toney's shoulder roll differs from Moore's.

Will respond to the rest of your post later