prime James Toney vs prime Rocky Marciano (12 rounds)

Toney doesn't beat Marciano. That wasn't my point. I think Marciano wins. But by KO, I'm not so sure. Toney has never been stopped and for good reason. He has come in out of shape for years and has never been stopped.
Fighting Marciano would be different of course, but to say he gets Knocked out for sure, I'm not going to go all in with that thinking.

Moore was past his best. Just because he can continue to win doesn't mean he is still at his best.
What was his record going into the Ali fight after he was KO'd by Patterson?
Are you going to tell me Archie was still at or near his prime just because was still winning?

Go back and watch Moore in earlier years. His overall speed for example looks better. And his stamina can be argued that it declined over the years after a certain point, like Patterson's trainer noted with those older guys...but like Toney, who can come in out of shape, it's those skills, that experience, that allow them to keep going.

Even Hopkins, his speed and stamina declined after a certain point and he hasn't had half the fights Moore had, nor the wear and tear; and he has the luxury of modern understanding of nutrition and training. But for some reason, people thought becausee he was winning, he was still at his absolute best. People need to go back and watch tape before Tito. He did have a career prior to that fight and he was physically better prior. He was more of a Killer prior to Tito than after.
Larry Merchant had a great quote about it but I can't remember it exactly. Something about how Hopkins used to be a Lion that hunted his prey and now he is a Lion that waits in the bushes...something, something something.............eh....hard to remember.

Here is an interview with MMA fighter Rich Franklin. Watch what he says at

3:30
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAMcASVmJZ4[/ame]


And if that was Moore at his best or even close to it, that just shows me how damn good Floyd Patterson was and how people should start to look at how we would have viewed him if he were to have solidified his name at Light-Heavyweight.
Although, I favor Patterson in that match-up no matter what time Moore is at in his career.

 

How much years of experience on everyone else did he have?

Plenty...and he continued to have plenty after suffering a horrible beating from Marciano.

What was his recent record going into the Marciano fight? I'll even let you go as far back as 50 fights to give you a fair chance.

for this particular fighter, 38 is not over the hill. In fact when you "look at it", Moore in 55 was coming off the best winning streak of his career and best career best fighters in the process.

Moore's not on trial here. Toney is. Toney would not have beaten the 1955 lightheavyweight champion Archie Moore.

The point is toney isn't even close to the same ballpark Moore is as a puncher. Moore could not stop Rocky with his best punches. I doubt Toney would even be able to hurt Marciano.

Uhhh...but he did. Without Toney's extraordinary 12th round, arguements can be made Jirov won the fight...and even with the 12th round a draw can be argued.

Struggles? I will gladly go into that debate. Marciano never lost. Toney did, and too far inferior competition in montell griffin and drake thazdi. You think either of those men even belong in the same ring as greats like Charles, Walcott and Moore? That is embarrasing to compare a resume like that to one of Marciano's. One in which he holds a 6-0 record over hall of famers, all which happened to be either champions/# 1 heavyweight contenders at the time they fought Marciano.

 

I disagree. I would like you to point out which film he looks faster in than in the Johnson, Olsen, and Marciano fights which happened 1954-1955?

It's not how he was winning. it's who he was beating. He was cleaning out hall of famers left and right and big heavyweight contenders in the mid 1950's. He was having the best success of his career, therefore he was fighting as good as he ever was.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alzheimer's_disease

Get yourself some help.

 

This

 

This is what HEgrant needs

This content is protected

 

I'm just glad his agenda has clearly been exposed. He comments, but nearly every time he responds to a poster it's something about Marciano. Like James Toney is more legitimate than Archie Moore at HW. Regardless of ****ing age. And as if Toney wasn't past his prime when he became a HW (Even CW for that matter). Moore was an anomaly (Which he was) if HeGrant thinks he was 40+ when he fought Marciano than he was LHW champion till he was almost 50. Shits all over Foreman.

 

Marciano by UD, no kd's

 

What's experience worth when you are being worn down?

There comes a time when experience can't get it done anymore and that young rook takes you.

Should we go down a list where "experience" no longer mattered?

But obviously Moore was incredible.

Here is a quote from Marciano:

This content is protected

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1134146/index.htm


How high do you rate Patterson's win over Moore?
And how about the others that had defeated him prior to Marciano, especially quicker?

And you don't think that matters at all?

He was in lots of wars going into the Marciano fight. Wear and tear does matter. Age matters.
He was resilient however. He held up pretty good afterwards considering.

What was his record going into the Patterson fight?

What was his record going into the Ali fight starting from the KO loss to Patterson?

How many times had he fought, how many rounds, how many wars, how many times was he down, how many times was he knocked out prior to Marciano?
Marciano didn't do anything that hasn't been done already.


Wear and Tear matters. Not only that, and I asked a Former Top level pro about this...knowing that the fighter has wear and tear and has been down and knocked out...actually boosts your own confidence in a fight. Not only going into a fight but during the course of the fight even if you are down you know eventually this guy could be had because of where he is at in his career as well as knowing what came before. Credit for Marciano however for always being prepared, never taking anyone lightly, and always following through until the end.

Older fighters can be worn down more so than a young, thriving, physically prime, in shape fighter.

He wasn't over the hill but he was arguably past his best. Look at Hopkins. He didn't have half the fights nor half the wear and tear as Moore did, but even at 38, although still good, he wasn't the same fighter he was say 5 years before or more.

Example of a fight: I don't think a younger Hopkins loses to Taylor. Hopkins just became a fighter that had to pace himself more because of age. He looked stiffer as well. And his power declined.
Robert Allen, a man Hopkins fought a couple of times before his last, even noted Hopkins had declined, even his power.
It's just the way it is.

Now not everybody is the same, but Hopkins is a good example to say even the fighter that lives a healthy life-style, is incredible with is defense, always in top shape for what he can be in, etc. can even fade with age.




And a year later. Moore he got Knocked-out by Patterson. And Patterson wasn't the first to do it. Marciano wasn't either. I don't hold it that high for Patterson despite me thinking that I would have always favored Patterson over Moore.

He was still 38 years old going on 39 soon. Skills and experience helped him out a lot but physically, you are not going to be as good in your mid-late 30's, close to 40's, as you were in your 20's. Not in boxing.

That's your opinion. That's who you favor. And that's OK.

Moore was a hard puncher, no question. Ted Lowry said Moore hit him harder than Marciano. And Marciano acknowledged Moore's power.
Moore's power did hurt Marciano so that does say something about his power.

I don't think Toney needed that knock-down to win the fight. It just put a stamp on it. It was a close fight but Toney wasn't going to lose that fight as long as he won the 12th or even had a "draw" in the 12th. I'll have to watch the fight again, been a while, and although I wasn't keeping score by writing it down, I think I had him up a point or so going into the final round.



How was Walcott doing on the cards going into the 13th?

You also have questionable decisions according to some with LaStarza and Ted Lowry {I} fights.

That's a fight I've always been interested in: Lowry vs. Marciano {I}
I just want to see how much of the stories are true. Was it close, not close, a bit inflated...
I know Lowry felt he won the first and lost the second.

Marciano never struggled?
He beat everyone with ease?

How about Marciano vs. LaStarza I; Ted Lowry vs. Marciano I ?
They are debatable fights. They weren't fights that could be argued that Marciano struggled just a bit in?



Marciano didn't have an easy time with a past prime Charles. Nor did he have an easy time with a 38+ year old Walcott.
They were easy fights?


Toney's problem was coming in out of shape. Freddie Roach talked about that. That is Toney's problem. I agree.
Something Marciano never would do.
However, he did come in shape for the first time in a long time against Jirov, according to Roach, and it did pay off.

Jirov was no bum either. Gold Medalist, undefeated CW Champion. Was a big player at the time. Lots of talk about him.

It's not like Marciano was fighting big 200+ pound good-great HWs or anything...especially not Super-HWs.

It's not meant to knock him because despite him being labeled as a "HW," Marciano wasn't a big guy at 185+. So his competition in that era, who were more LH to CW, were fine game.

Now James Toney has actually fought some bigger 200+ pound HWs and they were no bums. Not ATG worthy but no bums.

Let's look at the big names on his resume:


"6-0 record over HOF." as you like to build up.

Yes, 1 over a SHOT Joe Louis. WOW...what a great win.

2 over a 38+ year old Walcott (who actually lost to a past prime Louis so let's not make him out to be some sensational ATG worthy fighter, especially given how many losses he has and to who).

2 over Light-Heavyweight, arguably past his best, Ezzard Charles.

And 1 over LH, 38/39 year old Archie Moore.

So to recap: that's 6-0 record that was achieved fighting 4 opponents that are in the HOF.
1 win over a 175 year old shot fighter who was only fighting because he was an honorable person and had to pay Uncle Scrooge;
2 wins over a 38/39 year old fighter who was known as a journeyman for a long time, that was so good at that time he got KTFO by a past prime Joe Louis...not to mention look like he just fought for the payday the second time around...and 4 wins over two fighters, both past their best, that are in the HOF for being great LH.


Charles: Certainly a HOF fighter. No question. However, I doubt he is in the HOF based on being a "HW." He is in there because he was a "P4P" great fighter, specifically at LH.
He started at MW, known as a great LH which is what he really was.
He was arguably Past his best when he fought Marciano. Lost many times. Including by KO. All before stepping into the ring with Marciano.

All time great fighter for sure.
With all the talk of sports evolving and today's athletes being better than yesterday, I could only imagine what he would do to the current SMW and LH scene and shut people up.

Moore: Was a great LH. HOF Fighter; but I doubt he is in there because he fought at HW at some point.

He was incredibly crafty. Excellent fighter. But still 38, going on 39 against Marciano. Marciano didn't do anything to him that hadn't already been done.

Although has vast experience by the time he fought Marciano, there is a lot of experience in having tough fights, Wars...which included him being hurt, on the canvas, and even knocked out...all prior to facing Marciano.

If Marciano gets high praise for that, Patterson should as well given it was only a year later and Patterson knocked him out quicker and with less punches needed. And don't forget the fighters that did it prior to Patterson, prior to Marciano.

Walcott: Up and Down fighter with his career. Some wins, some losses. He was more of a modern CW. He also had been knocked more than once prior. Specifically by a Past Prime Joe Louis. Although I do think he beat a past prime Joe Louis in the first fight.

Now for Walcott's positive bonus, he knocked out Charles, before Marciano did.










How much credit does James Toney get for Knocking out HOF/ATG Evander Holyfield considering only Bowe has done that?




.

 

first poster here. i just watched toney- holyfield. marciano by KO, and holyfield by KO too, btw, if toney gets in with him again, which that rematch is possible. devastating, head turning KO's

 

Which gay bar did you boys have this conversation in ?

SQ is, honestly speaking, kind of stupid and it's fun to push his buttons because he reacts with the emotional maturity of a 12 year old, every time.

You Princess are a different breed. A bleacher seat troublemaker and a punk. I obviously still own you ... I never proactively address you but you cannot stop bringing me up ... you just love being ***** slapped ... you remain a twat ..

 

Marciano's capacity to 'ship it out' is going to have the defensive Toney in a tangle.

The best James could hope for here is an unusually nasty cut. There will be many interludes of lovely countering on his behalf, but all the while these episodic whims will be sandwiched between some typically insurmountable slugging and hustling by the Rock.

 

Toney would have to eat his fat burgers and Big Mac's though a straw after getting beat up by Marciano.

 

:happy

You nailed it :happy