prime James Toney vs prime Rocky Marciano (12 rounds)

When was this?

 

Bahahaha..what a tool I am. There was a guy who kept trolling me and had a name very similar to yours. Forgive me. Total mix up.

 

no problem. Confused the hell out of me. I was like...what is he talking about???

 

-If Patterson isn't an all time great...he has one of the better resumes. He has roughly 7 heavyweight wins against Ring Ranked Top 5 opponents(more than Tyson and about as many as Lennox), several others against top 10 regulars. Despite deserved criticisms during his reign(Lewis and Holmes are just as deserving), he ended up having a highly successful and very long career. Often credited with the fastest hands of all time and one of the better combination punchers of any weight class. You could make a great case for Patterson being a top 10-15.

-Like many at the time, Moore was an active HW and LHW. However, his success and high activity above 175 forced the Ring to break their rules and rank him in both weight classes. In the 50s, Moore was as legit a heavyweight as any. Only Marciano achieved more in the division at this time..and not by much.

-He did come in bigger. And no, he used his dieting methods to bounce from division to division in a matter of months. He was said to look soft at 196 in the Valdez rematch but was still solid and fit as a 195+ fighter.

-Cockell beat LaStarza, Mathewsx3, and J. Williams to earn his ranking. All top 10 and top 5 regulars. Did Toney really achieve more north of 175...if so, not by much. Certainly not comedic material, its reason for pause. All we really have is Toney's wins over old Holyfield, (roid no contest)Ruiz, and Jirov. None of which are great enough opponents to make a case for him being somehow being a better peak 175+ fighter than Moore and barely enough to even put him over Cockell.

 

Archie wasn't a true HW...certainly not a 200+ pounder who shrunk himself down. He was known as a LH for a reason; because he was. He is going down in history as a great LH, not a HW.

Big fan of Patterson but I'm just not sure how people rank him as a HW. I had trouble even talking to people about him being one of the best "P4P" ever because he never cemented his position as a LH for example.
The reason he didn't I feel was because the era was basically a bunch of LH that were taking advantage of the division.
If Liston had been at his peak in that era when a past prime Louis was fighting, Charles and Walcott became Champion and then Marciano...I say Liston goes through them all.

Cockell: I don't regard him to highly as a HW. I think the era was just weak in general. It was like a blown up LH division. James Toney had more skill than Cockell.

 

Jersey Joe Walcott, Clarence Henry, Bob Baker, Nino Valdes, Hurricane Jackson, Earl Walls, Joe Louis, Rex Layne, Roland Lastarza blown up light-heavyweights? All of these men were some of the 1950s greatest heavyweight contenders. The answer here is Zero. None of these men were blown up light-heavyweights. You just keep spilling out false fact after fact. Perhaps you should study up on the early 1950s heavyweight era more, if you are going to engage in a debate. It's actually quite an interesting and intriguing era to study. Some nice talent too.

 

Wrong again. Archie was a natural 200lb, who cut drastic amounts of weight to make the 175lb limit. He was a HUGE light-heavyweight.


How many times do you have to spill out false facts? Hit the books and study up some more.

 

Tell if Sonny Liston could make 175.

Tell me where Moore started his career as well as where he fought for YEARS at?

 

Archie Moore has a hw resume that is good enough to put him into the Top20 based on resume at hw. Easily. If that´s not a hw I don´t know what is.

 

-What is a natural heavyweight? From 1951-1955, Moore fought above the Heavywieght limit about 25 times. Only fighting at the LH limit about six. This was because his natural fighting weight was now 180-200 lbs and he was just cutting weight to make his mandatory LHW defenses. He was a full time heavy who occassionally dropped down to do enough.

-How Liston does theoretically is irrelevant.

-I don't regard James Toney to highly as a HW either.

 

Joe Louis doesn't count since he was SHOT. Although he did manage to KO Walcott years before Marciano did.
Louis's era was before Marciano's. Remember, he did retire...and for good reason.

LaStarza by today's standards would be a LH.
You make weight then you rehydrate 10-20 pounds.

Rex Layne: LH to CW...maybe more so a CW.

Valdes was a 200+ HW. Baker was as well.
Hurricane Jackson: CW

It was a smaller era of fighters.

How many of the big guys were actually that damn good?
And I'm not talking about just for that era. I'm talking about overall?

 

Someone who starts off as a HW and/or is at least a HW by the age of his physical maturity. Someone who can't make the lower weight divisions without severely hurting himself health wise. If you can make LH for example healthy, which will show in your performance, you are not a "natural" HW...especially if you have been fighting there for years, like fighting as a LH.


How old was Moore when he started at HW?
Toney couldn't make LH if he tried either but he wasn't a natural HW. He was a blown up fighter.


Liston is my example of a natural HW...specifically the 200+ natural HW.

Patterson would be a blown-up fighter. He put on weight to compete in the HW division. He wasn't big. That's why I say had Liston already been there and Champ, he may have stuck to the LH division. If he were around today, he may have fought in the SMW, LH, and CW division.

 

-Ok, you are aware that Moore suffered from severe stomach ulcers in his youth. He struggled to keep weight on as his condition grew worse and at one point wasted he away to just 100 lbs and was forced to retire. It wouldn't be until his late 20s that he got operations and diet changes that cured him.

-As far as making lower weight divisions without hurting himself. Exactly, this is why everyone was so curious about his diet and why he has such a mystic. You don't regularlly fight as high as 196 one month and drop down to 175 the next without any changes in your performance. He was simply a one of a kind in this regard. But his natural walking weight was 200ish and his regular fighting weight was 180-200, this is well documented.

 

Again, WRONG.


Joe Louis DOES count since he was the Ring Magazine # 2 heavyweight contender in the world when Marciano fought him. Louis was coming off 8 victories in a row, one of them being a knockout victory over BBC heavyweight Champion of the world top rated Lee Savold. He also beat # 7 Cesar Brion, Jimmy Bivins, Omelio Agramonte, and he knocked out Nino Valdes and Pat Valentino in exhibition matches. Louis was far past his prime in 1951, but he was still a good fighter with his size, skill, jab, and left hook. He was still capable of beating most of the top heavyweight challengers in the division, and he did so.

Would James Toney have beaten the Joe Louis of 1951? not sure. Louis might have jabbed his head off.

Does age matter or do results matter? What did Toney ever accomplish in his career that could match Archie Moore's heavyweight run from 1951-1955?

Louis retired cause Marciano knocked him out. However, Louis was primed for another title shot. He was the # 2 contender in the world, and promised a return title shot vs Ezzard Charles. Marciano had to beat Louis if he wanted the title shot. Louis was the favorite over marciano and held considerable size advantages.

So Joe Louis, rated # 2 in the world, at 6'2 214lb counts right?

Lastarza complained once about coming in very dehydrated at 184lb. I highly doubt he could make 175lb.

So was Joe Louis. So was Earl Walls.

Louis, Baker, Valdes were all good. All had top jabs, all had good skills, and all could hit hard.

Compared to what....Todays heavyweight? or compared to eras which preceded it?

 

The one thing I never looked deeply into was the weigh-in process back then.

It was same day weigh-in back then, right?

And what were fighters doing back then...still using the method to cut some weight and put as much back on?

There is something else but that's a touchy subject and a bit unfair.