PRIME JEFFRIES AGAINST FOREMAN OF THE MOORER FT?

Lol Cooney and Qawi were still far superior to Jeffries or any other guy during that era. I am not talking about historically speaking. I mean in actual skill and talent.

Qawi wasn't a heavyweight? Half of Dwight's fights he weighed more than Marciano did. Qawi was also bigger than guys like Gene Tunney in terms of weight but Marciano and Tunney were heavyweights but Qawi isn't? Well I expect people like you to say stuff like this.

 

You are one of these want to be boxing experts who just say whatever you want to believe. It doesn't matter if you want to believe the guys Foreman fought during this comeback were elite or not. They were still modern sized heavyweights and modern skilled heavyweights. Shannon Briggs in his prime would of knocked out every heavyweight until the 60's.

Guys like you don't have the intelligence to grasp that boxing as evolved a lot over the years. Somebody like Jack Johnson was good for his little era. if he boxed today with the same style he wouldn't even be considered a top 1000 guy today. In fact he would a cruiserweight and wouldn't even be a top 100 cruiserweight. But historically speaking right? But you heard Burt Sugar or some other old school so called boxing expert say Johnson could beat modern sized guys?

Cooney was still a 6'5 230 pound modern heavyweight. He was only 33 or 34 when Foreman fought him. Adilson Rodrigues was ranked as has a number 2 in the world and was still a top 10 guy when Foreman faced him. Pierre Coezter was ranked high enough if he would of beat Bowe he would of fought Holyfield for the title. Michael Moorer was champ when Foreman stopped him. I will assume guys like the 36-0 6'5 230 Lou Savarase was a stop 15 guy and so was the 6'4 230 pound 29-1 Shannon Briggs. Axel Schultz was probably in the top 20. Tommy Morrison was in the top 20. Bert Cooper was a solid fighter.

Each of these guys are modern sized fighters and fought in the modern age. Jeffries fought in a age where basic jab combinations didn't exist. He fought in a era where you could be a 160 pound guy and fight a 170 pound guy and it was consider a heavyweight bout. James fought in a era where you could avoid people because of their skin.

You can't even compare the eras. Even a joke fighter like Charles Martin would of ruled that era.

 

Lol

 

It doesn't matter what they weighed.

You cant simply assume that they were better than the top contenders from another era, if they were not beating elite opposition.

 

If you are asserting that boxing has evolved, then the onus is upon you to prove it.

At the moment you are just making a raft of assumptions, with nothing to back them up.

 

Foreman lost to Morrison, who had a shaky chin and bad stamina, lost on my card to Alex Stewart, and was well behind on points until Moorer lined up in his gun sights.

Jeffries pounds him.

 

Rich,

I'm begging to think you do not know what you are talking about. Beatings?

The first fight was a relatively easy one for Jeffries.


JEFFRIES A KINGPIN

(Los Angeles Daily Times, Sat., June 10, 1899)

By Direct Wire to The Times

CONEY ISLAND SPORTING CLUB (N.Y.), June 9 -- (Exclusive Dispatch) Big Jim
Jeffries of Los Angeles is the champion pugilist of the world. At the Coney
Island Athletic Club tonight he defeated Robert Fitzsimmons in a fast and
vicious contest that went eleven rounds. He fought with the coolness and
precision of a veteran, and at no time was he in danger of meeting with
defeat. It was a fair and square contest, marked by a brilliant display of
science on both sides, and was fairly and squarely won. The young Californian
showed himself a master at every point in the game, and won as he pleased
after he had taken the measure of his opponent.

To those who had seen him before he offered the greatest surprise. He was no
longer a clumsy, awkward boxer, hesitating to lead or to follow an advantage,
but a finished fighter, keen and alert for an opening, and swift to take and
follow an advantage when it came to him. He came to the ring in superb
condition, and the first round that he fought had no apparent effect upon him.
As he stood over the prostrate form of his bleeding and unconscious opponent
he looked fit to go on for another hour. He was punished throughout the fight,
for no man who never before met reverse, without being hit hard and often; but
he stood up to it with a lion-like courage, and never faltered.

He showed an entirely different method of boxing. He crouched very low, with
his left arm extended, and Fitzsimmons seemed lost as to the best method of
finding him. His defense was nearly perfect. He also showed wonderful
improvement in footwork and hitting power. He was as lively as a lightweight
on his feet, and repeatedly ducked the undercutting swings of his opponent. He
has stopped cuffing and chopping. He punches and hooks and swings with the
precison of a finished boxer.

It was a great battle, and the young victor will probably remain the champion
for years to come. He has size, weight and speed, and the comparative ease
with which he defeated Fitz, whom they all feared, will give him wonderful
confidence.

Jeffries won a fortune by his wonderful victory, and furnished one of the
greatest upsets in the history of pugilistic betting. Hundreds of thousands of
dollars were placed on him at the ruling odds of 2 to 1. Fitz was regarded as
a sure winner, and was liberally backed. It was admitted that he was at a
disadvantage, as far as youth, weight and reach were concerned, but his
backers relied upon his speed and cleverness to pull him through. It was
though that he would simply stand away from his man, and jab and chop him to a
finish. In reality, he found himself pitted against a man just as fast as
himself and equally clever as a boxer. He went in with every confidence, only
to be fooled by the young giant whom he faced, and then beaten to a knockout
by superior strength.

The credit for Jeffries' notable victory belongs to the men who prepared him.
Billy Delaney, who developed the Corbett that whipped John L. Sullivan, was
his guide. With the eye of an expert, he studied and guarded Jeffries'
physical development and care and Tommy Ryan and Jim Daly taught him the
science of the ring. In six weeks they accomplished, with the excellent
material in their hands, what ordinarily takes years of actual experience to
do. They had raw material, and they whipped it into shape.

As is usually the case, the man on the short end of the betting had the crowd
behind him, and the young Californian was cheered on to victory. When it
became apparent that he was standing his opponent off and taking the lead, he
jumped into marvelous popularity, and New York will tomorrow hail him as King.
He will retain his popularity, for he is as modest as a girl. He prepared for
the battle without a word of disrespectful nature for his opponent, and was
clam in victory. He had said in calm, but determined way, that he was going to
win. He believed it, and realization was but proof of his words. Again, he is
the first American in this half of the century to win the championship, and
among the thousands of patrons of the ring he will be hailed for that respect.

It was California's night in pugilism, for principal, manager and trainer
claim the Golden State as home. In the house, too, there was a hopeful little
band of Californians, who cheered their favorite from the handshake to the
count-out. It was one of the few heavyweight championship events ever pulled
off in New York, and it was Gotham's first chance of seeing Fitzsimmons in a
real contest, and the fight provoked tremendous interest.

It was 9 o'clock before the auditorium of the clubhouse began to fill up. The
crowd was a most remarkable one. There were delegations from almost every city
of importance in the United States and Canada, and in the number were all the
sporting men of note. Professional New York, however, contributed the largest
portion of the great audience that numbered nearly ten thousand and paid about
$100,000 for its sport.

Both men entered the ring in splendid shape, and the fight proved that they
were so. There was but little time lost in the ring. Nobody paid any attention
to the announcements, and drowned the voice of Frank Burns, who made them. The
impatient, eager crowd had not come for speeches, but to see the fight.
Jeffries quietly slid off a red sweater and a pair of black trousers, and
showed the most remarkable physique that those present had ever seen. Great
masses of muscle lay on his back, chest and shoulders, but it played lightly
and swiftly when he moved.

Fitzsimmons was finely drawn and lithe, and looked like a greyhound when he
tossed off his blue bathrobe. They were both under twoscore of great electric
lights that burned on the gallery over their heads, to furnish light for the
vitascope pictures, and seemed like actors under a huge calcium.

When the gong sent them away, they both began to size one another up, and
nothing effective was done in the opening round. Fitz was aggressive in the
second and until the eighth round, but Jeffries stood up to him and fought him
back to a standstill. The Cornishman went down before a straight left in the
second round, and Jeffries kept putting his head back. Fitz persistently
pressed the Californian, but he had met his match, and was powerless to land
an effective blow. He put his left on the young Californian's eye in the fifth
round and cut it, but Jeffries came back gamely and fought on.

The Californian used his left effectively on the face and body, and also
brought his right into play on the body repeatedly. Fitzsimmons tried all his
tricks and devices, but was either blocked or countered harder than he led.
After the seventh round the young Californian had things all his own way. The
eighth round was all his. He sent the Australian staggering against the ropes
with a left-hander and again landed his left. Fitz went to his corner dazed.

Fitz came back fairly strong in the ninth round, only to be beaten back. It
was all Jeffries' way, and there was consternation in the Fitzsimmons corner.
The crowd saw the inevitable result, and there were hoarse yells for the
Californian to go in.

In the tenth round Fitz was beaten to a standstill, and it was only the call
of time that saved him. He was down twice, and was done for when he staggered
to his corner.

The end came after a minute and a half of fighting in the eleventh round. It
was left and right from Jeffries, and the Australian, who had always never
known defeat, dropped down unconscious. His seconds frantically called to him,
but their words fell upon deaf ears. Referee Siler and the timers called off
the ominous count of ten, and there was a roar of applause that shook the
building up. A new champion was heralded.

Jeffries' seconds swarmed around and embraced him, and in an instant hundreds
of spectators broke for the ring. The police stopped the advance, and while
Jeffries slipped through the ropes and ran for his dressing-room, Fitzsimmons,
still limp and unconscious, was carried to his corner. He was some time in
reviving, and then did not know he was beaten or that he had been in a fight.

 

I can't see how stylistically Jeffries would do anything but eat punches and land maybe a hook few and far between on anyone he's being put in against here in this forum, especially Foreman...

Newspaper and contemporary reports only go so far when you balance those against the film that's available, which is plenty.

Face it that Jeffries was fighting either decent smaller men or straight up bums.

He has literally no defense at all; plods forward with his hands below his waist, and throws one lunging punch at a time... He gets away with it only because of his poor opposition.

Foreman would make this dude look like the part-time taxi drivers and factory workers he fed on early in his comeback. He would be absolutely manhandled. And that's not trolling, I'm dead serious.

I recognize and respect him as a historical ATG and great for his time, but simply look no further than the films for the head-to-head matchups.

He also had what, 16 fights? It shows.

Gimme a break, folks.

 

I'm begging to think you do not know what you are talking about. Beatings?

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IF HE WASNT REGULARLY SUBJECTED TO SIGNIFICANT PUNISHMENT HOW WOULD HE HAVE ACQUIRED HIS REPUTATION FOR TOUGHNESS AND DURABILITY?

 

There was this guy called Ali?

 

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Did you read the first fight review I posted. Where are these beatings ( plural you refer to? ) How was the first fight with Fitzsimmons a beating? It wasn't. You're mistaken, again. I;m begging to think you have an agenda or some uneven high standard only applied to some.

I find this quote of yours funny.

".Jeff took severe beatings from 167lb Fitz before KO'g him he ain't surviving a punch from Foreman."

>>Not a punch! Again, Jeffries was never Ko'd or floored by men under 200 pounds, but Joe Louis and Dempsey were and the guys they fought in many cases that stopped or floored them hit nowhere near as hard as Fitzsimmons, who killed three men from boxing, and was noted by historian Nat Fleischer as the best KO'd puncher of all time. many years after Fleisher's death RIng MAgazine did an all time top 100 punchers. A very good magazine and Fitz was rated in the top 10 of all time.

As I told you before, back then taking a punch was not so easy. The gloves were lighter, and there were no mouth guards or even vaseline to help prevent cuts. Heck, they didn;t even use ice.

Foreman would have a chance, but it would need to be early as he gassed out. Based on how easily Lyle hurt him, other punchers on his level or better could do the same.

 

The same way everybody does. See Ali, or Vitali Klitschko. They took big punches. In addition, Jeffries won the 2nd fight vs Sharkey who was at his best with an injured left.

 

I find this quote of yours funny.

".Jeff took severe beatings from 167lb Fitz before KO'g him he ain't surviving a punch from Foreman."

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