Prime Jim J. Jefferies .Vs. Jack Johnson

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by la-califa, May 2, 2008.



  1. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

    36,838
    3,273
    Sep 14, 2005


    Your comparing a fight where the weight difference was 8lb vs a fight where the weight difference was 63lb!!!
     
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,264
    Jun 29, 2007
    And what's worse drawing on your 5th fight to Choynski or getting Ko'd on your 25th to the same guy when Choynski was slightly past his prime?

    Johnson was floored by another middle, and lucky to escape with draws vs O'Brien, and Jim Batting Johnson. His filmed fight with Moran is mediocre. Honestly I cannot see what some other see in him. At least on film and in the newspapers.

    Jeffries in his prime 1904-1906 would have beaten Johnson. If you compare the reuslts to common oppoents, Jeffries is better than Johsnon by a good margin. See the Munroe, Girffin, Choynski, and Everett fights.
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    95,060
    24,774
    Jun 2, 2006
    Love to see them ,where can we view them?.Is that how you compare fighters Mendoza? If A kos B who has beaten C,C will be a piece of cake for A. As in Ali - Frazier - Foreman?
     
  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,264
    Jun 29, 2007
    Let’s us say Jeffires was " A " and Johnson was " B ", They meet several " C 's " and in all cases Jeffries did better. Let us not use one example. How about 4!

    Vs Choynski - Jeffires floors choynski 3 times, and gets robbed into a draw vs a more well know fighter. Choysnki Ko's Johnson in 3.

    vs Munroe - Jeffires destroys him in two. Johnson takes a fat and out of shape Munore the distance.

    Vs Griffin - Jeffires Ko's him once, and floors him many times in a 4 rounder. Johnson looses to Griffin and draws to him twice

    Vs Everett - Jeffries destroys a prime version. Johnson takes a more shop worn version the distance.

    I do not think you can be objective on this topic based on previous Jack Johnson threads, but you have to admit this is something that says Jeffires would have an edge over Johnson in their primes. It not like I’m making this stuff up.

    Furthermore, the fighters of the times, even the black ones like Langford and Jeanette felt Jeffries was better. The only ones that sided with Johnson were close friends or fighters on his payroll as sparring partners.
     
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    95,060
    24,774
    Jun 2, 2006
    The Griffin affair was an exhibition not a fight.I stated that Johnson was a lazy fighter and didnt often go out for the ko ,when I said Jeffries went the distance in some fight s you said that was his style ,double standards.Jeffries had 63 lbs on Choynsky!Let us agree ,you think Jeffries was bettter, I think Johnson was better. I think a fight between them would be competitive but that Johnson would win a dec . Frankly , I think you are the last person on this Forum to talk about objectivity ,where Jeffries is concerned you have none.As for Johnson,I can take him or leave him ,my favourite heavy is Dempsey actually,I just dont like spin being applied to the facts.
     
  6. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,372
    464
    Oct 6, 2004
    The similar opponent theory is interesting to explore a little bit. You to have to allow for style differences a bit, if fighter a is a counterpuncher and fighter b a knockout puncher, is an early ko necessarilly more dominant than going the distance and winning on points but comfortably? Obviously the foreman frazier ali theory always comes up to denigrate the others but is this abnormality as common for results and upsets where there are four or so common opponents with similar results? Also, in listing common opponents without any thought, Fitzsimmons, admittedly for obvious reasons though also should be given some consideration. Still, i am interested to see of any examples from either mendoza or mcvey, where the common opponent theory has or hasnt been succesful where there is similar common opponents to jeffries and johnson.
     
  7. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher VIP Member Full Member

    42,732
    240
    Jul 22, 2004
    The biggest is to see how they did when they fought. Yes Jeffries was old, but how well did he do early on? Did his power bother Johnson? Did he have speed, countering, strength to power Johnson?

    The simple answer from the fight seems to be Jeffries didn't have any tools to worry Johnson. Yes he wasn't prime but when we watch Tyson-Lewis, Louis-Marciano, Dempsey-Tunney, we can see the older fighter had attributes to trouble the younger man, this isnt really the case in Johnson-Jeffries
     
  8. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,997
    943
    Sep 13, 2006
    Johson was a clutcher, so he gives even a prime Jeff trouble because he would nullify his offense by incessant grabbing and minimalist offense. However, does he beat him? I don't think so. Here's why. First of all, a prime Jeff had wonderful condition, an iron jaw, better power than Johnson, and was more active with his offense. Johnson had some issues with taking a punch (partially explaining why he was so defensive), so he could be hurt or decked by the naturally bigger Jeffries. Therefore, in a finish fight, I don't think Jeff wilts before Johnson does. As for a points fight, Johnson had a number of lackluster performances and was consistently criticized for having a paltry offensive output and grabbing too much. Those two factors would likely cost him in a decision bout. Jeff would be a bit more active, land what were thought of as the harder blows, while Johnson would grab, only have occasional spurts of offense, land some really good single shots, especially his beautiful uppercut, but simply not be active enough overall to get the close decision. Of course, I could be wrong.
     
  9. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

    7,670
    90
    Feb 18, 2006
    My take also is that a fight in 1905 or so might have been one of those very tough to call decisions in which Johnson makes Jeff look bad with his defense but does not do much offensively and the issue boils down to how much credit does Jeff deserve for his aggression, even if it was not that effective.
     
  10. JIm Broughton

    JIm Broughton Active Member Full Member

    772
    22
    Feb 24, 2007
    It would be a much more competitive fight that's for sure but I still think Jack would take it by decision. Too slick and he had the punch to make Jim think twice. One hell of a match.
     
  11. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,372
    464
    Oct 6, 2004
    Jeffries troubled Johnson a lot more than Tyson, Lewis and Dempsey troubled there opponents in those fights. Though Dempsey did catch Tunney once in 20 rnds. Also, the Jeffries that fought Johnson was coming off a far far bigger lay off and therefore yyou woud expect a far worseperformance compared to his prime than the other three fighters you mentioned.
     
  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

    36,838
    3,273
    Sep 14, 2005
    Why did jeffries not give johnson a title shot in 1904-05? why did jeffries retire when top young black heavyweights were on the horizon(mcvea, jeanette, johnson). Why did Jack Munroe get a title shot over jack johnson?
    Why did Denver Ed Martin not get a title shot vs Jeffries?
     
  13. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

    7,670
    90
    Feb 18, 2006
    I don't think your view is obvious off the films. Louis did better than either Jeff or Dempsey, but he had been active. Dempsey was badly beaten the first time, but certainly 'troubled' Tunney more in the second fight than Jeffries did Johnson. Johnson, off the film, dominated Jeff completely.
    I agree that Jeff had laid off so long that one would expect an 'empty shell' performance. The best that could be said is that he was no more inept than the 1926 Dempsey or Tyson. Louis did better.
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    95,060
    24,774
    Jun 2, 2006
    I haven't read your book ,but it has very good reviews ,so I accept you know your subject,what weight do you put if any ,in the statement that Jeffries is supposed to have made after the fight concerning his chances against Johnson when Jeff was in his prime."I couldnt have licked him in a thousand years"? I give Johnson little credit for beating Jeffries ,perhaps slightly more than for koing an ancient Fitz, prime for prime I think Jefries would run Johnson close ,but Jack seemed to fight to thel level of his competition,and a fired up Jeffries would, imo bring out the best in Jack.I think Johnson would have had an easier time with Sharkey too.
     
  15. la-califa

    la-califa Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,292
    44
    Jun 12, 2007
    Did any of these common opponents face Middleweight Champion Stanley Ketchel, Which Johnson Brutally Kayoed? Could be another barometer between the two.