Prime Jim Jefferies vs Prime Lennox Lewis

Name them and we can debate them.

 

The thread title says prime Jeff vs prime Lennox - so what has that got to do with a 6'1, 200 lbs Lewis?

 

Jeffries was out of the ring close to 5 years had to lose close to 100 lbs at the age of 35-36? and tried like hell- I think a younger version would have offered much more - just like the Johnson who was battered by Jess Willard or the Ali who lost to Holmes and Berbick and Spinks
The old timers thought prime vs prime would have been a fair fight and many liked Jeffries

I wish I would have asked Nat more questions but opinions are opinions- there was an old black gentleman who was a writer as well, he was also very knowledgeable - I remember Ken Buchanan was training at the 28th street gym and I was a big fan - I remember asking Nat if he thought Ken was great and he told me "very good not great" but he said the same thing about Ali- Nat was a big fan of Benny Leonard - Nat Loubet really just knew general boxing knowledge, he handled wrestling,he was brother in law to Nat F and father in law to John Ort who got in trouble for taking money off Don King to rate fighter higher - one fighter was Tom Pratt a Holmes opponent. I talked with John Ort he was a good guy just got caught up trying to make a living.

Nat F told me a few stories about Ketchel - Greb - Tunney he said Jeffries was a strong athlete, loved Sam Langford- Johnson but a lot of names I didn't know at the time. I was more with Freddie Brown an old trainer who was a wise cornerman for many. ( he taught me a special left hook that stayed with me)

A smart boxing guy was a young guy named Flash Gordon - he had a weekly newsletter and was partners with a kid who became a small time promoter Johnny Boss - Flash had vast knowledge but a more modern opinion but put me on to Jersey Joe Walcott (who he rated high) Also Eddie Cool who was a writer for an Australian magazine - nice old timer

also a few promoters and fight people, I was young so I used to listen and ask opinions - Teddy Brenner was one of the best (non cable) promoters I have seen in my lifetime - he stacked the undercards with future stars that would make you comeback to see them as they moved up - Teddy was a class act and old school promoter.

 

I remember Cool did a preview for Frazier-Foreman 1 in the Australian mag... where he predicted George would completely manhandle Frazier and stop him in the 2nd round. I was reasonably impressed!

 

Eddie was a great guy - I used to run into him at the gym and we would go for coffee - he was also part of the crowd outside the garden - promoters- trainers- fighters & writers - some deep conversations and remember that was before the internet so it was hard to get the results of fights instantly unless you stayed close to the boxing vine

 

You criticize Jeffries for his titile fights, even though he was much better champion than Johnson and at least gave the best contenders a chance (same applies to Dempsey).
You criticize Jeffries for fighting small guys by modern standard, even though Johnson also fought small guys.
You criticize Jeffries for being too small to compete today - would you say the same with Johnson (or Dempsey)?
You criticize Jeffries for the whole era he fought in - roughly same era Johnson fought in.

There is more, but I stop here. You and Mendoza consistently try to make Johnson/Jeffries look bad, but at the same time you praise Jeffries/Johnson. It's illogical, why don't you just appreciate each fighter's greatness? Is it that hard?

 

Have I ever suggested Jeffries was near prime for Johnson,or that the fight would not have been entirely different had he been so? I think the result would have been the same but it would have been a titanic struggle imo, possibly a fore runner of the FOTC.ps
Jeffries didnt lose anywhere near 100lbs and he was down to weight when he came back from Carlsbad. Nearly a year before the fight.
The old black gentleman would have been Jersey Jones,he wrote a regular column and was Dick Tiger's US representative. John Ort sold the integrity of the Ring for $$$ so that King's spurious US tournament could include set ups for King's fighters to knock over.After the scandal broke assisted primarily by the Flash Gordon you referred to and Alex Wallau, Ort was nick named John Bought.
Tom Prater was the guy Holmes beat in that US tournament,the tournament that excluded Hagler because his managers, the Petronelli's would not turn over50% of him to King. Gordon and Boss have solid reputations as has Brenner ,there is a docu about him on You Tube.
You are very fortunate to have been around these guys who were so steeped in the lore of boxing,and I am fortunate you have taken the time to share some of your experiences with me and the forum.I thank you for them.

 

never mind

 

I criticize Jeffries for defending against no hopers like Finnegan and Munro, for defending against Ruhlin though Fitz had beaten the **** out of Gus.I criticize him for making Fitz wait 2 years for his title shot after he had kod both the number 1 and 2 contenders inside two weeks.I criticize him for not facing the challenges of Martin,McVey, and Johnson, so no he didnt give the best contenders a chance did he? I criticize for refusing to defend against a coloured challenger and there was plenty of demand for it read the contemporary reports with headlines such as
The Color Line Doesn't Go Anymore.

Are my criticisms valid? YES or No?
I don't criticize Jeffries for facing smaller,older men it was hardly his fault except he could have rematched Fitz a lot earlier, when he was on a roll. Not wait 2 years till he was 39 and hadn't fought for those 2 years.
I criticize Jeffries for referring to Johnson as a ******,a skunk and a ****, for refusing to shake his hand before and after their fight . For stating he lost because he drank drugged tea. Valid criticism?

• Now lets address Johnson. Johnson fought the biggest challengers with the heaviest average weight until Joe Louis ascended the heavyweight throne.look it up!
• Johnson beat his three major black challengers before he became champion.He fought Jeannette 5 times floored him multiple times and lost only 1 on a controversial foul.He fougtMcVey 3 times beating him easily each time and stopping McVey in the last one, when both he and Langford were still maturing, he beat Langford badly flooring him twice for long 9 counts and breaking his nose.
• As champion he accepted two separate offers to defend in NY against Jeannette,both offers were withdrawn after pressure was brought to bear to stop them taking place.
• He accepted a two fight deal to defend against both McVey and Langford in Australia but when he jumped bail religious leaders there brought pressure to bear on McIntosh the promoter ,public opinion turned against the fight,and McIntosh withdrew his offer.I have the details of these offers and the public statements given by the promoters and commissions as to why they acted as they did,and I've posted them several times.They can be found in Pollacks first class two volume biography of Johnson,which I heartily recommend to anyone wishing to educate himself on it.NB The Moron whose name you mentioned has not read them or Unforgivable Blackness,Johnson by Denzil Batchelor.Jack johnson by Finis Farr,Jack Johnson by Randy Roberts,
• or Jim Jeffries nor Bob Fitzsimmons both by Pollack. Or Moyle's excellent Langford book .Moyle by the way picked Johnson to beat Langford prime for prime . The hater posts with a hate agenda.I like to think I post after being informed.
• To summarize Jeffries refused to defend against a black man ,no argument on that, he stated his intentions many,many times.Johnson signed to fight his three most dangerous black challengers but the fights were vetoed by the authorities.Again no argument here, its verified fact.
• My position I don't care for Johnson as a fighter ,I dont like his style,,as a man he was seriously flawed but an interesting man.Jeffries was imo an unimaginative ,phlegmatic racist bruiser.

In a time when racism was the norm both men benefited from it. Jeffries was allowed to dodge Martin,McVey ,and Johnson,saying he would not take a chance on losing his title to a black man.
Johnson was allowed to sidestep McVey,Jeannette and Langford because promoters stated ,[Rickard,Cofforth,Curley] there was no money in promoting two ******s for the title.Hence Johnson could receive big purses for defending against the less dangerous White Hopes most of whom he barely trained for
The crucial difference here is, when the required amount was found Johnson accepted those challenges Jeffries ignored them.
As to the chief Johnson hater I have him on ignore but apparently he still debates with me!
How ****ing stupid is that?
Apologies for the typing Im struggling along on my partner's lap top as my pc has given up the ghost.
Any other criticisms of me, feel free to post them and I will be only to happy to address them.Im not going anywhere for the foreseeable future!lol

 

you are very knowledgeable of the era and the people - Im impressed mcvey! - very few people know the details and the players in fact you reminded me a few details and yes that was the name of the Gent Jersey Jones, very nice man- My wife talked me into moving my old magazines and ring books up to the attic - I may have to bring them back down for old times sake

 

I'm five foot 8.5" I once stopped a guy 6'3" 224lbs when I was 168lbs,do you think I would have had a prayer if he had been any good?lol

 

I hope you do,its extremely pleasant talking to you, and hearing about these guys!

 

This is sterling work, I didn't know about the proposed Aus fights.

 

You've got 1 boxer who boxed since he was a young teenager and had around 100 amateur bouts at world level and 44 pro bouts. Versus someone who had no amateur record and was learning on the job with a career total of 21-22 fights. Not only that but the more seasoned experienced boxer has dominated in the era of PEDs and beat every man he ever faced. Not only that but the more seasoned boxer has massive advantages in height, reach and speed.

I think this might be a little bit of a mismatch