Prime Joe Calzaghe vs Prime Andre Ward @ 168

All fighters wear pillows on their hands during training and sparring.

 

Where is this "prime" Calzaghe everyone speaks of? It wasn't when he was beating Lacy, or struggling with the likes of Reid, he was completely shot supposedly by the time he got to Hopkins and Jones. I also don't see how this hand problem took away from what he did as a fighter, I don't care what anyone says, he never had elite power.

I have to admit, I am American, and was not exposed to his name until later in his career, but from the videos I have watched, I think he was at his best from Lacy all the way through to Jones... Some of his earlier fights were down right ugly looking and awkward, I think he got more refined as he aged.

 

What you talking about the ref for? :huh


World champ Joe Calzaghe found broken glass in his coffee and an ice cream before his big fight with Robin Reid last night.
He spotted the glass during meals at his hotel on Thursday and Friday night.

Fight promoter Frank ****** said he believed someone had tried to nobble the champion.

"We think it's someone trying to sabotage the fight," he said. "These sort of things are not a coincidence. We are carrying out a full investigation, as is the hotel."

The super-middle-weight champ was dining at the Newcastle's Copthorne Hotel with ****** and fellow-fighter Richie Woodhall when he found the glass.

Calzaghe's fight with Reid was top of the bill at the Tyneside venue.

His wife Mandy said: "Thankfully, nothing serious happened."
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Champ's+drink+is+nobbled.-a060153698

 

Serge why don't you take your 154 posts and crawl back into the hole you came from...I doubt you will be missed.. The last thing ESB needs is another "informed" Calzaghe fanatic.

When the hell have I ever made an excuse for Roy Jones? Your point gets lost easy when you lump me in with other people, and assume I think certain things because I like Roy Jones. I am also not anti-Calzaghe, but like you said, there are many trolls and alot of the actual anti-Calzaghe people are around because of the fact there are about 20 posters who think he was the GOAT. Am I supposed to assume you are one of the ones who believe shot, brittle boned, bloated, half dead Calzaghe beat a prime Jones? I am sure if I did, you would go on another rant about me not knowing what I am talking about.. Take some of your own advice.

I also never said Calzaghe didn't have hand problems, I meant that I don't judge him differently for having bad hands, as all fighters fight through injuries, and I gave Roy Jones as an example who was an elite puncher with hand problems, and beat great fighters with hand problems.

It is obvious you don't think highly of Roy Jones, so you probably should't complain about people not thinking highly of Joe, as you are doing the same thing. You give Roy the hammer for his failed drug test and label him a cheat while Joe himself isn't actually the best role model, how clean and natural was he? When did he aquire that taste for cocaine? Do you know if he ever did before fights?

 

Bailey,

Sorry for the very late reply, I've been busy.

Ha!

I wouldn't call him a GREAT fighter.

I take everything into consideration. You don't! You never allow for circumstances, and you only view things in black and white.

I judge a fighter on their ability, the strength of the division they fight in, and their opponents etc. Who they fought and when.

Ottke had a great record. But was he great? Did he have exceptional skills? Did he beat great fighters? Was the SMW division that he fought in great?

Are you going to tell me that Ottke was a better fighter than De La Hoya, because he was 34-0?

You can list as many stats as you want, the 175 division was stronger than the 168 division that Joe fought in from around 97-2006. There's no getting away from that. There were better fighters and bigger fights for Joe at 175.

Roy, Tarver, Griffin, DM, Reggie Johnson, Hopkins etc, all fought there between those years. You can try and spin it whatever way you want, but they were better fighters than the 168 guys.

So what are we saying? Ottke was better than Carl?

Ha! Ok! Ward isn't better than Ottke, because of your black and white boxrec stats. I don't care if Ottke had made 113 defences.

Guys like Ottke should be thankful that a guy like Roy just passed though the 168 division, otherwise he wouldn't have had the career that he had. Same goes with Joe. If Roy had've stayed at 168 for the majority of his career, there wouldn't have been any unifications, or 46-0 records. Life is all about circumstances and opportunity.

Ward is a better fighter, and he beat Froch and Kessler relatively easy. It doesn't matter if Ottke was a winner of 22 title fights. Who were they against??

You love your stats! I've never spoken to anyone who thinks that Rocky Marciano is the greatest heavy of all time.

Herol Graham? At SMW when Herol was how old? 37/38 right at the end of his career. That was his last fight. That wasn't a great win for Brewer.

Sciaca? Branco? Were they GREAT wins against GREAT fighters?

Cherifi? Magee? Jesse Brinkley? How great were they?

What have I got to say to that? Liles retired two fights later. He was at the end of the road. What have any of your examples got in common with Liles? Of course fighters lose, and they can come back from losses. But Frankie retired after losing to Brewer and then Jenkins. Do you think Jenkins would have beaten a prime Frankie Liles? Liles was a dangerous fighter, but in 98 he only had the one fight, and then he retired shortly afterwards. My original point was that the 175 in division in 98, was stronger than the 168 division in 98. Your stats aren't going to change that fact.

 

So what if Roy didn't make videos whining about his hands, anyone that watched the fights and followed his career would know, as it was usually talked about by the announcers that got inside information from Jones' camp. He also stated in an interview how he changed to more of a pot-shot style, to make his hands last longer. Roy didn't talk about weakness very much.

What exactly does it mean that Jones couldn't stop Toney and Hopkins? I don't get what you are getting at. He still dominated, and beat Hopkins mostly with a left hook. I hope you are not comparing Jones not being able to stop two iron chinned ATG fighters to Calzaghe's struggles.

All this shot, brittle boned Calzaghe beating Jones talk is what gets a lot of people going.. We all know Calzaghe was not shot, we all know Jones had fought over 100 more rounds than Calzaghe, and fought in 2 weight classes lower, and two weight classes higher than Joe's lowest and highest weights. Roy clearly had more miles on his body...Was cleary shot, as said by Joe himself.

So what if I am an American had not heard of Joe until later.. I still went back and watched many of his fights, and I never saw a power puncher... It is sad though, because I had heard of Lewis, Hamed, Hatton, Pac and many other overseas fighters early and got to enjoy their careers.. Joe didn't really care to get many American viewers, and I think it hurts him in the long run.

 

Bailey,

Part 2.

ANYONE he could just to get his foot in the door. He could have fought anyone, just to introduce him to the weight and fight live for the first time in America.

Where have I mentioned Kessler? Frank MADE him fight Manfredo because he wanted more exposure from AMERICA. The reason he wanted more U.S. exposure, is because the U.S. fans and media had only seen him fight a handful of times.

Yeah you keep saying this. But Joe didn't have psychic powers over ten years ago did he?

What if he'd have moved up to 175 earlier and became a 2 weight champ, beating Roy, DM or Tarver etc? He also could have fought Johnson and maybe Hopkins earlier.

It surely would have been a bigger achievement, if he'd have gone up to 175 earlier and won a belt, rather than beating Kessler to unify at 168?

Ha! Ok, so we're going to ignore what Joe said, and the fact that Roy hadn't won at elite level for 5 years, and that he'd been destroyed FOUR YEARS EARLIER by Johnson, just because he fought Amaju, Hanshaw, Tito at 172, and because Hop got his revenge after? Right.

So who did Lacy beat? If you think Ward wouldn't have been a bigger threat to Joe's zero, then explain why.

Whatever. He didn't enter the tournament, and now you're holding it against Ward.

As I've said, I believe Ward would have fought Bute at some point had Froch not have destroyed him. After Carl had beaten him like he did, there was absolutely no call for the fight. Ward was injured after the Super Six, and he deserved a few fights of his choice, after he'd won the tournament. We're not discussing Froch. His circumstances were different. He hadn't won the tournament, and he wasn't injured.

How could he have fought Dirrell and Froch first? Why is it so important to you? You have an obsession with undefeated records.

What would you say if Joe had retired at 44-2, and Froch was unbeaten now? What if Froch had taken 3 unbeaten records, and Joe hadn't?

Would you look at the stats and declare Carl as the better fighter?

He said he was losing motivation. Imagine how he felt when (in his words) he was killing himself in the welsh mountains to make weight for Manfredo?

I've answered you hundreds of times. He could have moved up to 175 earlier, and fought anyone he could at the weight. They could have built him up to the U.S. fans, and if he'd have impressed, he could have had big fights against the likes of Roy. He could have moved up the rankings, and he could have been either Roy's mandatory, or they could have been a huge demand from fans and media to see them both fight.

Here we go again. He mentioned Roy's name and then did NOTHING!

Hopkins pulled out of a 3 fight deal that included Joe in 2001/2002. He fought him in 2008. He moved up from 160 and bypassed 168 to fight Tarver in 2006. Joe could already have been established at 175 at that point. Hopkins and Joe could have fought in 2006, or possibly even earlier.

Ward is on record as saying that he wanted to let the fight build up. Carl spoiled the party. If Bute redeems himself and Ward stays at 168, it could still happen. Or maybe both fighters could meet at 175 if they move up.

The unification with Kessler was 3 years AFTER those quotes.

If he'd have been established at 175, and he'd have won a belt (which he was more than capable of doing) then I'm sure he'd have made more money.

It was a big fight in the grand scheme of things. But outside of Europe, that unification fight wasn't a big event.

Tarver vs Hopkins was a much bigger fight.

If Joe had've fought Tarver, and Roy and Hopkins (earlier than when he did) those fights would have been much bigger than the Kessler fight.

Kessler was hardly known on a global scale in 2007.

You haven't blown anything out of the water.

The 175 division was stronger than the 168 division from 97-2006.

:good

 

Serge is the biggest cry baby ive ever came across on this forum.. Joe's poor hands, boo hoo.

Calzaghe retired in his prime. Shot, bloated, no handed Joe doesn't exist.

 

Anyone who thinks 168 was tougher than 175 when Jones and DM were prime is certainly off their rocker. There was a reason Joe didn't go up then, and It was not because he could see into the future and know he needed to stick around for legendary fights with ATG fighters Lacy and Kessler. The chances of Joe running into a good southpaw at LHW would have also been more than likely. There was a span of years, in order to get a major LHW belt, you would have to beat Jones Jr or DM.. That must have looked flat out disheartening to some fighters that wanted to move up. It wasn't only Joe, Hopkins didn't care to move up then either.

 

Nine Posters were impressed by this display:

[yt]ACgTJhEdj5M[/yt]

 

Great post Mind! :good