Prime Larry Holmes beats any version of Foreman

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MarkusFlorez99, Jun 6, 2021.

  1. IHaveAscreenName804

    IHaveAscreenName804 Member banned Full Member

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    Lol as I put up a link showing Foreman called out Holmes back in the late 70's and Holmes and his people flat out didn't want a part of it. I know what casuals will say. But Foreman couldn't handle boxers. You do realize Ali was forced against the ropes and couldn't out box Foreman? Foreman lost to Jimmy Young because Foreman looked past him and didn't take him serious.

    Larry Holmes couldn't keep a faded Ken Norton off him for crying out loud. Renaldo Snipes almost knocked out Larry Holmes with one punch. Holmes struggled with a young Tim Witherspoon in a fight I think he lost.

    There is nothing Holmes did that Ali didn't do better. Ali got lucky against Foreman. Foreman thought he couldn't lose because he beat guys that Ali lost too. Fighters lose. That being said Ali could take a body punch way better than Holmes could. Ali could take a head shot better than Holmes could. Ali took a flush punch from Shavers and was only staggered. The same punch almost knocked a prime Holmes out.

    Foreman would slaughter Larry which is why Larry Holmes people didn't want Larry Holmes in the ring with Foreman.
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  2. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    I think you're right.
     
  3. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I like Foreman by TKO or even KO personally as Holmes will always get up if he possibly can. Sure Holmes would be odds on over the Foreman who was trying to box and working on pacing against Young but the aggressive blitzkrieg who fought Norton, Frazier and Ali is a different proposition.

    Foreman could most certainly cut the ring off. Cutting the ring off isn't just done by footwork it's done by punches as well. He loved getting a guy sliding away from his left hook then banging that huge right hook to the body that both done damage as they moved right into it and stopped their lateral momentum in a heartbeat. After a few gigs with that he'd sweep the monster right hand to the head when they were looking for that painful shot to the ribs. With those long sweeping shots he could actually "walk" opponents laterally into his bombs. Sadler and Moore weren't just carrying the spit bucket that's for sure. They worked with what Foreman had and added a bit of bombers finesse to the show. they took advantage of his strengths.

    Ken Norton could most certainly move laterally. It was moving backwards he struggled more with. He tried his heart out to give Foreman lateral movement in an effort to avoid his early bombs but Foreman was far too skilled for it to last long. He had subtleties going than many would not even notice and it's the reason Norton was bombed out fast. Despite the speed of victory it was still a quite measured performance by Foreman.

    Foreman's subtle abilities are the reason why i favor him. He's going to have Holmes working so hard early and he's absolutely going to be banging that right hand below the ribs at opportune times and this is going to turn into a sweeping shot to the head at various intervals particularity when they get close on the ropes and Holmes tries to slide out to his left. Foreman would put infinitely more pressure on than a Shavers who mostly just plodded aimlessly along and hoped to land a bomb, many of which were very telegraphed.

    At a point much earlier than many envision Holmes will have to start and try to fight his way out of trouble. This will be the beginning of the end. With his excellent hand speed Larry will have some initial success but the firefight is only going to go one way.

    Ali didn't beat Foreman by outboxing him, he won because he outlasted him. Not many guys ever would have survived what Ali did that night. It's so often glazed over. The amount of punishment he took just to the body would have sorted out a lot of people and he took some serious bombs to the head as well. Ali took it better than anyone when combining both head and body punishment. He also was extremely strong himself and pulled George's head down the the likes multiple times throughout the bout.

    Frank Lotierzo has some excellent stuff on this.

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    Here's a memorable little clip Reznick put up years ago of old George.-
     
  4. BCS8

    BCS8 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think this would have to be a fight to be seen to accurately get a result. I could see either guy winning via different routes. I do rank Holmes at 4 and Foreman at 6 on the ATG HW scale. Make of that what you will.
     
  5. Stiches Yarn

    Stiches Yarn Active Member Full Member

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    Larry's own team didn't want no part of Foreman fighting a green 22-0 holmes.
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    Holmes also claimed in his book agains the odds, that saddler wanted Foreman to fight the "Ali wannabe" (Holmes), but Larry said that while he believed he would beat George, he would fight him only if the money was right. His team didn't believe he could win, but Holmes did, however according to Larry, They should have paid him enough to take the risk.
     
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  6. Stiches Yarn

    Stiches Yarn Active Member Full Member

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    I don't know if i gave you the right Link, but if it doesn't work , search "Why We Didn't See Foreman vs. Holmes In The 1970's
    BY
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  7. White Bomber

    White Bomber Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Prime Tyson is the best puncher Holmes or anyone else can ever face. Tyson had the power, but more importantly, had the speed, timing and accuracy necessary to land his power shots.
    Foreman can probably punch harder, but he lacks the accuracy.
     
  8. White Bomber

    White Bomber Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Holmes beats Foreman 99 times out of 100, and the one time Foreman wins is due to a lucky punch
     
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  9. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Bye for now! banned Full Member

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    Oh yes and you needed to be a real ATG to beat Shavers LOL.
     
  10. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Even losing to Jimmy Young is no guarantee that he would lose to Holmes.
     
  11. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You have failed to explain why Ali even bothered to try to use his legs if his plan from the beginning was to lay on the ropes and counter George.

    And your notion that he only complimented Foreman's ability to cut the ring off to toot his own horn is basically just your opinion with no real evidence. As I mentioned, other opponents have mentioned that Foreman is good at cutting off the ring, not just Ali.
     
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  12. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The power of critical thinking alludes you. He fought the 3 best opponents in the division (Frazier, Norton, Ali) in a row with the only break being Roman. After a 1 year layoff he fought the dangerous Lyle who had just brutally KO'd Shavers in a slug fest. Then he intentionally fought the slick Jimmy Young. The idea Foreman's team just carefully managed him and avoided any serious threats while only picking favorable opponents is nonsense. You do realize he was the underdog against Frazier and written off, right?
     
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  13. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So was George. Read contemporary articles written about him.
    He only attained maneater status after beating Frazier and Norton.
     
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  14. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Bye for now! banned Full Member

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    You must remember GF surrounded himself with some very intelligent boxing minds. Those 3 men all had circumstances Joe was looking perfect for the taking I would wager a Lyle or Shavers could have repeated the feat at that point they acted fast to take someone who was looking faded someone who was taking on the Ron Standers and Terry Daniels of the world at this point VERY soft opposition for a year.

    Norton was a fighter who could not move at all who was known for having okay power and he was someone who would play to Foremans strengths it didn't hurt that he also had a history of being KO'd in sparring and once by a very average puncher.

    @greynotsoold has explained the Ali fiasco to you but might I add that he was paid a LOT of Money for that much even I would jump in the ring with Ali for that much money.

    Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle was just part of the game. He had to climb the ladder again as a former champion and not as a can crusher he was in the mix with the best now. Lyle had been stopped by Ali a bit back and was always a mediocre looking fighter with a decent whack this fight did no favours in making George look good at all he was the first puncher Foreman mixed it up with who actually tagged him. Young was the fighter between him and Ali from memory a political situation. One that beat the best version of Foreman I saw on film. The issue in lies the film does Young look like a good fighter to you?
     
  15. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Again, you're not making sense if you look at the context of the timeline.

    Frazier was a 4-1 betting favorite and was the undisputed champion who gave Ali his first loss. People had completely written Foreman off. To use revisionist history and pretend like he was "ripe for the taking" isn't a matter of opinion, it's simply historically wrong.

    Saying Lyle or Shavers could have done the same thing Foreman did to beat Frazier is purely your OPINION. They both lost 1 sided bouts to Quarry who got his ass kicked by Frazier 2x. Neither Shavers nor Lyle looked good leading up to the Frazier bout and had very mixed results. Lyle had gone life and death with Ellis and lost to Young in a 1 sided schooling. Shavers lost to Stander, the same Stander who Frazier tore to shreds.

    The fact you said Norton can't move at all indicates you cannot be taken seriously when it comes to Norton. It's quit obvious you saw him getting knocked out by the big hitters of the era and didn't bother closely studying his other fights. As Johnthomas pointed out, he does have lateral movement, but he can't move backwards and Foreman cut the ring of expertly. Contrary to popular belief, Norton was NOT simply pressing forward right into Foreman's big punches. Norton was NOT seen as an easy mark, many experts thought he'd present a stiff challenge due to beating Ali and his excellent stamina/conditioning and ring IQ. There are about half a dozen break downs of the fight on youtube, watch them. I'm not about to argue with someone whose just making things up to suit their narrative.

    The purse offered has nothing whatsoever to do with the conversation.

    We were discussing whether or not Foreman actually cut the ring off and surprised Ali or if Ali just inexplicably chose to dance for 1 1/2 rounds for no reason just to waste time and energy before implementing the rope a dope.

    Lyle was never knocked down in his career until he fought Shavers, whom he knocked out in a sensational war. Nobody had ever slugged it out and won against Shavers before or after Lyle. That is not a soft touch after a 1 year layoff no matter how you slice it.

    Yes Young was a good fighter, are you high? Young at one point was arguably robbed on the cards and could have been champ. He pushed a faded Ali to the brink and was an excellent outside fighter and counter puncher. He had the exact opposite style of someone Foreman's management would pick if they wanted to cherry pick! Seriously, if you're going to have this agenda to tear down all of Foreman's opposition, at least do your research! :lol:
     
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