Prime Larry Holmes beats any version of Foreman

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MarkusFlorez99, Jun 6, 2021.

  1. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And the power of Christ compels you !
     
  2. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This is probably the number one fight ever that could have happened that didn’t. Judging by both of their careers I’m picking Foreman prime for prime. Ali lasted because he had the greatest chin in hw history (imo) and several other variables like temperature and a really dumb GF. GF wouldn’t let larry off the hook like the others that had him in trouble. In a neutral non 100 degree weather location in picking big George to eventually catch him and put him away
     
  3. greynotsoold

    greynotsoold Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He didn't 'try', he went out and set the trap. I would wager any amount of money that Foreman's people were telling George that Ali was going to try and move but that he was old and that FOTC took so much out of him that he wouldn't be able to maintain the movement.
    And he did exactly that and George waded in thinking that it was all going exactly to plan.
    If you think that Ali had any idea that he was going to move all night, then you have a low opinion of, first, his ability to understand and evaluate the state of his own body and, second, his ability to adapt to not only his own ability but to understand the way to beat a big strong guy with very few rounds of experience.
     
  4. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Bye for now! banned Full Member

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    You are so dim. Not worth the time to convince you. You are so dismissive yet like most people you know next to nothing but what's fed to you.
     
  5. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I like Holmes style in a fight against George but it's far from certain he could beat Foreman, Larry never moved constantly and many times slugged it out and as you accurately pointed out Larry had some tussles with a few fighters. Many on here have pointed out Foreman lost to Jimmy Young but I think defensively Young may have been slicker than Holmes, he just lacked Larry's offense. It would not surprise me if George cut the ring off and using his own very good jab got to Holmes. And if George hurt and dropped him, Holmes wouldn't survive like he did against Snipes and Shavers, both which had him seriously hurt
     
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  6. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Though I'm not entirely convinced (let's please keep in mind Larry is my favorite fighter, with George a close second), this is one of the best posts I've read here. A very compelling case.

    Let's say 1981 Holmes vs. 1973 Foreman.

    To me, though Larry was roughly about Ali's level in terms of punching power (Holmes' jab was probably heavier), he was not terribly far away overall from Foreman in overall body strength (if some people like the bodyweight game...I'm not a huge fan...Holmes was 215 against Berbick, while Foreman was 224 against Norton). Both were about the same height.

    I don't see Foreman roughing around Larry like he did the others in his prime. Larry had a few tricks up his sleeve, too. Yes. George was a MASTER at cutting off the ring, but Larry was a master at jabbing and holding. And Larry's jab was not something easy to brush off. I think Foreman would get disoriented and frustrated by that jab, and take the rights (let's not forget Holmes took a page from Ali with the lead right, a punch that could land on Foreman).

    I see Foreman possibly getting a knockdown here, but overall becoming progressively more frustrated. He admitted to having anxiety issues against both Frazier and Norton, and there's no reason he wouldn't have the same at that stage in his career against Holmes. Holmes was also a ring genius, something that I notice doesn't come up much around here. Due to the aged deterioration of his other skills it was most clearly delineated against Mercer, but he had terrific Ring IQ as far back as Weaver (Mike himself admitted Holmes helped get himself out of getting completely blown away due to his intelligence). George...I can't put him on that IQ level during the time period selected.

    Foreman puts on a terrifying performance the first four or five rounds, scaring the yee haw out of Holmes and putting the latter on a strict jab-and-hold regimen. By the third round the ref has taken a point away from him for holding. The problem is, Larry is landing the jab, while Foreman is more often than not getting fooled by the smoke and mirrors cleverness of Holmes' defense. A lead right in the fifth knocks the sweat off of Foreman and from that point on he gets that bewildered look we've all seen before.

    By the 7th round Holmes is landing the right with more regularlity, staggering George in both that round and the 8th. In the 9th Foreman is exhausted, swoll up, and looks like he wishes he were anywhere but there. George gets dropped by a right for a flash kd in round 10, gets up, but Holmes is simply landing too often and Foreman is just pawing. TKO toward the end of the 10th.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
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  7. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ali does not have the greatest chin in HW history. He obviously has a solid one though. Im sorry but if you're getting bested by Jimmy Young i can't favor you over prime Holmes. Obviously Foreman could knock him out and it is going to be one of if not Holmes hardest fight but Holmes had a better jab than Ali and would beat Foreman to the punch every single time. Holmes has the durability to survive some very shaky moments and weather the storm and as soon as Foreman shows signs of gassing Holmes will outwork and whoop Foreman
     
  8. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree with everything here but I'm curious...who had the better chin than Ali?
     
  9. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Have no problem with you picking that. I just disagree. Can’t see Holmes weathering that storm. And I’d argue Ali’s chin was bar none the best in history. No one imo would go through that gauntlet how he did and not get a few stoppages. Think about the number of quality fighters he faced compared to all the other champs/contenders and still wasn’t stopped (can’t count Holmes and even then he wasn’t knocked out).
     
  10. Saad54

    Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I am not sure.

    Absolute prime Foreman was very formidable

    Ali had a great chin and took some of the force out of George's punches by leaning back against the ropes and letting him punch himself out. That isn't a style Larry would likely use. More probably hed have to move laterally while jabbing and avoid the right hand while keeping George away. If he lets George get inside George could damage him with uppercuts.
    The key would be whether Larry can outjab George and keep him away until George gasses, which he would eventually.

    I think it's an exciting and competitive matchup prime for prime.

    If I had to bet I'd say Larry survives some rocky moments and wins on a late tko over a tiring Foreman.
     
  11. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I wouldn't be calling anyone dim when you accused Foreman's team of cherry picking when they picked the 3 best opponents in the division in a row. Who was he supposed to fight, Henry Cooper? Brian London? :lol:
     
  12. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The difference between my posts and yours are that you're speculating and trying to guess Ali's intentions. That is a slippery slope and very subjective.

    All we know for sure is that Ali DID in fact attempt to use the ring at first and Foreman cut him off. He DID in fact state he was surprised by Foreman's speed and knew he'd be exhausted trying to keep away from him for 15 rounds. Other opponents DID in fact comment on Foreman's ability to cut off the ring.

    Do you know what Occam's razor is? The simplest explanation is the most likely one. If this was the only time we ever saw Foreman cutting off the ring your argument would have more merit but he did that in other fights as well.

    It's actually illogical to just assume Ali was lying to make himself look better. Dancing even for one round in hot muggy outdoor weather is going to rapidly drain your stamina and Ali was smart enough to realize that. Leading up the fight, in the "when we were kings" documentary, he scoffed at critics claiming that he could no longer use his feet and even began insulting Foreman calling him a slow mummy and boasting he'd be too fast. Was this all just part of the plan too, or is the simplest explanation (that he was surprised by the hot weather and Foreman's speed) the simplest explanation?

    I'll grant that perhaps he did have the rope a dope in the back of his mind but it's quite obvious based on the ACTUAL FILM OF THE FIGHT that he wanted to try and use his legs first to see if he could outbox Foreman. He couldn't.

    And that's what this boils down to: Ali did NOT beat Foreman by outboxing him, but through sheer guts, lots of clinching, and countering off the ropes, sacrificing his abdomen to avoid headshots. Larry has never in his whole career taken that many brutal body shots over and over. He was tough and skilled, but this idea Larry would just box circles around Foreman is nonsense if we're basing it on the Ali fight because that's NOT how Ali won.
     
  13. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    David Tua for one and Vitali Klitschko also had a titanium chin, totally eating hits from big punchers like Lewis and Sanders. Ali has a granite chin but he got folded badly by 185 pound henry cooper and got worn down and dropped by Frazier. Regardless Ali's chin is still granite and had one of the strongest chins ever no denying it. I think Holmes in his prime had a solid chin (not as good as Ali's but still good)
     
  14. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Cooper hit hard as hell. He just wasn't a particularly good boxer. Ali was clowning and left his jaw wide open. Nobody is just going to shrug off a perfect left hook to the jaw, especially if they don't see it coming.

    Frazier hit hard too and had a respectable 70% KO ratio. It also took him dozens of shots to wear Ali down and he didn't drop him until the 15th.

    Vitali didn't take very many hits from Sanders. In fact his chin wasn't tested that often because he had very poor opposition. Lewis likely would have knocked him out if the fight continued and he was his best opponent.
     
  15. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It still happened though. Cooper hit hard but he was tiny and his KO ratio wasn't particularly high going into the Ali fight and Klitschko took an absolutely massive uppercut from Lennox Lewis and wasn't hurt at all. He was never dropped in his career either unlike his brother. I think Lewis would have outworked him or stopped him on far more severe cuts had the fight gone on but i don't think he would've knocked him down for the count or anything

    I just dont think Ali had the "greatest" chin of all time or he wouldn't have gotten dropped