Prime Larry Holmes beats any version of Foreman

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MarkusFlorez99, Jun 6, 2021.

  1. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Have you ever boxed before? A guy can be 20 lbs lighter than you and still rock you if they land on the jaw. He had a low KO% because he just wasn't a very good boxer. There are tons of guys like Curtis Sheppard or Bert Cooper who were easy to outbox but hit hard as hell.

    Claiming Klitschko wasn't hurt at all by lewis uppercut is a huge exaggeration. Did he say that? Did he laugh or just shrug it off? Vitali was stumbling all over the place during that fight, it's just that Lewis was so old, fat, and gassed he had a hard time putting his punches together to take him out. Do you think the aggressive younger Lewis who blitzed Golota or Ruddock and took them out early would have failed to take out Vitali?

    Vitali was dropped by Sanders but it wasn't counted as a knockdown. He was also dropped by Troy Roberts, the fight is on YouTube. As I mentioned, it was a combination of Vitali facing weak competition which was mostly slow fat old sluggers and plodders like Peter, Briggs, Areola, etc who simply couldn't get past the annoying upright orthodox European stance that Emanuel Steward taught.

    I didn't say Ali had the greatest chin of all, but using the cooper fight isn't evidence against that. Anyone could have gotten dropped while off guard and being hit by a perfect left hook to the jaw they didn't see coming. Besides Ali took bombs from more big hitters than arguably anyone in history. He was completely washed up and a sitting duck for a prime Larry Holmes who couldn't drop him. Shavers couldn't knock him out either.
     
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  2. Seamus

    Seamus Devotee of the Little Red Book Full Member

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    I would favor Holmes. He was functionally very strong and good in the clinch. Mentally, he was far stronger than the physically prime Foreman. Larry had the heart of a lion, unbelievable recuperative powers. Excellent stamina and control of pace. I think he pounds and tenderizes George who increasingly clumsily follows him around the ring.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  3. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    Holmes dices George up .. I love George as a presence but honestly feel he may be the most over rated heavyweight of all times ... in the first go round he destroyed Frazier who was past his best and made for him and then a Norton who never defeated a slugger, ever .. he fought for his life vs Lyle and was exposed twice ( Ali and Young ) George was wild, undisciplined and had stamina challenges .. at times , more than once, he looked as absurd as Max Baer. In his second career he was calmer, more controlled, better conditioned and paced but insanely slow .. he managed himself brilliantly and went very far without fighting the best first rate sluggers that would have exposed him .. no Tyson, No Lewis, No Ruddock, No Bowe , not even a Mercer or a Bruno .. Larry Holmes matched him in height and reach, was so much faster, was better conditioned , had a terrific chin, exceptional recooperative powers and as much heart as any fighter that ever lived .. Foreman could not beat a 32 year old Ali or Jimmy Young. He was not beating Larry Holmes.
     
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  4. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I do not have the time to do this again. I'll sum everything up.
    In heavyweight obviously one punch can change everything and obviously not seeing a punch coming can affect how your chin holds up but at the least there are sparring stories of how hard Bert Cooper hit, i dont recall any fighters explaining that Henry Cooper was a powerful hitter besides Ali but Ali said that about tons of guys and Vitali was never hurt or wobbled by a punch from Lewis. Lewis was overweight and past it but dont make it sound like Lewis was too fat and gassed to commit to his powerpunches and combinations because he did. he gave Vitali a massive uppercut in round 6, probably the hardest, most flush uppercut I've ever seen him throw and he ate other flush shots and was never visibly hurt or staggered by Lewis. And he was not dropped by troy Roberts, he slipped and was already going down when Roberts clipped him. He was also pushed down by Sanders right hand. Sanders had him hurt but he didn't knock Vitali down with a blow.

    Not in any way saying Vitali is better than Ali because he's not but i think he has a better chin. Regarding your question if a prime Lewis would blitz Vitali, i don't think he would. Golota has been dropped and knocked out various times in his Career and Rudduck was knocked down multiple times against Mike Tyson and Smith and was even stopped by Jaco, Vitali never really showed anything like that. If we say cuts dont happen then I definitely think prime Lewis wins by possible late TKO on the ropes where the ref has to wave it off or wins a decision.
     
  5. clark

    clark Well-Known Member Full Member

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    '73 and '74 Foreman catches Holmes and stops him.
     
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  6. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ok so if you agree in heavyweight boxing 1 punch can turn any fight around and that Ali was off guard, why are you arguing? Ali took bombs from men who were both much heavier and hit harder than Cooper. His durability and toughness improved. This whole Henry Cooper argument is silly and older than sliced bread. I repeat, nobody faced more genuine punchers than Ali, especially Vitali who had a career full of mediocre c level boxers.

    Vitali being off balance or already slipping when troy and sanders punched him his is irrelevant. If anything other than your feet touch the canvas it's a knockdown. This is why when Zab Judah hit Mayweather and his glove touched the canvas it was considered an unofficial knockdown.

    Vitali's chin simply wasn't tested that often because he faced mostly mediocre opponents. If you look at the highlights of other champions like Tyson, Holmes, Ali, etc when they faced similar low level mediocre opponents on their way to the top, they rarely got hit or even buzzed. It's just that Vitali continued to fight guys like that throughout his career! Obviously he had a good chin, but people exaggerate and ignore the context of his opposition. He enjoyed an enormous height and reach advantage over most opponents with a cautious robotic fighting style.

    I wasn't saying Vitali would get taken out like Golota or Ruddock just as easily, he was more durable than either of them. My point was in those fights Lewis was in MUCH better shape and was letting his hands go with excellent timing, leverage, accuracy, etc putting his shots together and was picking them apart like a butcher. The Vitali fight he was very slow and was basically gassed by round 5 due to his age and excessive weight, plus he took the fight on short notice. If you think it wouldn't make a difference if it was a motivated in shape prime lewis and Vitali wouldn't have gotten taken out, I don't know what to tell you lol.
     
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  7. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Cooper was a good fighter and took advantage of a still semi green Ali (according to Cooper Ali hadn’t yet learned to fight inside yet). Cooper also could bang had a well known left hook. With plenty of good wins under his belt. More then sanders id argue (take away the Wlad win and his resume is rather weak). The strength is Ali’s chin imo is in his competition. Even those like Vitali or Tua you argued didn’t fight a third as good a fighters as Ali did. Say what you want about Ali’s boxing ability he was flawed but he probably fought the toughest completion of any fighter ever. Definitely any Hw ever and it’s not even close.
     
  8. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Larry Holmes could win. He would have to dig deep to survive the first 4-5 rounds. Holmes has the tools. Larry wasn't as strong or confident to do what Ali did. Young was actually slicker than Holmes defensively.
    It could go either way. If nailed down I think George Foreman's early round intensity and uncommon power would overwhelm Holmes. Probably score a couple of knockdown to get a TKO. The quickness of Foreman's footwork moving in would be a problem for Larry. George could cut the ring down. Kenny Norton found that out when he tried to box Foreman.
     
  9. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    88 Holmes might beat Foreman.
     
  10. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    im arguing with you because you replied to me, i didn't quote you first. I listed my reasons on why i thought Ali didn't have THE greatest chin of all time, although he had an iron one and has one of the best in heavyweight history. I've already said that

    It's not irrelevant when you're comparing 2 different scenarios. Mayweather wasn't off balance nor was he slipping when Judah tagged him and knocked him down. Vitali was pushed down by Sanders right hand and was already slipping on the way down when Roberts hit him.

    Wasn't it you yourself who said Henry Cooper had power but just wasn't a good boxer ? That applies to big punchers like Herbie Hide, Corrie Sanders and Samuel Peter, all big punchers who all landed on Vitali, just weren't elite level boxers. Lennox Lewis literally landed on Vitali flush several times and gave him a powerful point blank uppercut and didn't stagger Vitali at all.
     
  11. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Bye for now! banned Full Member

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    You really don't get it and you are trying so hard to pretend to.
     
  12. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I would watch both the Berbick and Norton fights again, my friend. Holmes took a whole bunch of more-than-solid body punches. Neither Berbick nor Norton were in the class of Foreman for punchers, but they still had notable shots, ask Tate and Ali, respectively.
     
  13. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The difference is sanders, hide, peter, Areola etc barely landed consistently on Vitali because he fought tall and they couldn't get close to him. Cooper, for all his faults, had excellent timing and threw a picture perfect hook with superb accuracy if nothing else.

    Vitali in general just didn't get hit much on top of the fact most of his opponents were barely any better than Cooper in terms of skill. Do you think for one second Tyson, Holmes, Ali, Foreman, etc would get dropped by those guys?

    Didn't look like sanders "pushed" him. As for Roberts, that's subjective how much of it was the punch and how much was it Vitali already slipping. You claimed he was never dropped but not only is that incorrect, it's a strange stat to big up when you look at his horrible opponents.

    Dude the Lennox he fought was literally the worst version of Lennox I can't believe we're having this conversation. His timing, accuracy, and balance were horrible. That fight was so sloppy it made Marcos Maidana look like Robinson. Yes Lennox landed some good shots but his coordination was off and couldn't put his punches together well on top of being old and fat with a shot had tank.
     
  14. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    No, you don't get it. :lol: you're extremely dense and everyone is laughing.
     
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  15. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The difference was Holmes was on the move in those fights, in fact one of the best displays of mobility for Holmes was the Norton fight. Lateral movement can decrease the force of a punch quite a bit.

    Ali was pinned against the ropes and Foreman was getting the full leverage on many of his shots to the body because Ali was willing to sacrifice it to avoid getting hit in the head. No one is beating Zaire Foreman without being able to take it to the body. Holmes was certainly tough and skilled enough to pull something off, he has no less than a 45% chance prime vs prime. But it is a bit of a mystery if he could survive non stop barrages to the body.