Prime Larry Holmes vs Mike Tyson

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by sas6789, Aug 6, 2017.

Prime Larry Holmes vs Mike Tyson

  1. Holmes By PTS

    27.3%
  2. Holmes By KO/TKO

    18.2%
  3. Draw

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Tyson By PTS

    2.7%
  5. Tyson By KO/TKO

    51.8%
  1. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That whole support network. He was high maintenance.
     
  2. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Belies belief really but not surprising is it.
     
  3. It's Ovah

    It's Ovah I am very physically burn you Full Member

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    I don't think you understand what cherry picking means.

    I pointed that video out specifically to counter your assertion that Machen took single shots better than Tyson. Unless you can show me a comparable video of Tyson getting destroyed like that then we'd have to say that that particular point of yours holds little water.
     
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  4. It's Ovah

    It's Ovah I am very physically burn you Full Member

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    Considering he actually beat him that's a curious statement to make.
     
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  5. It's Ovah

    It's Ovah I am very physically burn you Full Member

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    So how do you actually see him beating Tyson? At the least he'd be eating the same sort of shots he ate from opponents during his prime years, and given how often he was hurt by lesser punchers like Weaver and Snipes how well do you see that going for him?
     
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  6. It's Ovah

    It's Ovah I am very physically burn you Full Member

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    Who's asserting that though?

    I already explained what I was responding to in the above post.
     
  7. It's Ovah

    It's Ovah I am very physically burn you Full Member

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    Funny thing is I'm more than prepared to accept any argument for a prime Holmes beating Tyson, but it has to be based on reality, not nostalgic perceptions and fanboy logic. All I'm seeing in defence of Holmes is how awesome his jab was, and how much better he was than Buster Douglas (as if that sort of A B C thinking ever holds water in boxing). No real acknowledgement of his weaknesses or his style as it actually was.

    And some of the mental gymnastics used to belittle Tyson (why? what purpose does it serve?) are just mind-boggling at this point.

    No real debate can be had with people like that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  8. Bonecrusher

    Bonecrusher Lineal Champion Full Member

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    Losing Cus was devastating to Tyson but Cus knew his time was short and Rooney was always there with Tyson, as was Cus, as was Jacobs, that’s when Bill Cayton was also at the top promoting. I completely disagree that losing Cus at that time was worse than disbanding the original team and losing Rooney. Once Cayton was removed and replaced by King it all started to change. Bringing in yes men letting Tyson call the shots and running wild. If anything losing Cus which was devastating to Tyson motivated him even more. Every interview from back in the day all Tyson was ever talking about is how he had to fulfill the prophecy that he and his great mentor Cus set into motion. Once Tyson won the championships and once the Robin Givens/Don King angle came into play and he stopped training seriously he was a whole different fighter. You could see his drop off and change in style as early as the Frank Bruno fight. Yes Cus was more important to Tyson than Rooney as a man but losing that original team was what really started to do Tyson in. But you can’t blame the kid he had everything and was champion at 20 years old, he had the World in his hand, he was pretty much guaranteed to unravel at some point and early. But I still stand by my earlier post at his absolute peak he was programmed to beat Larry Holmes and he would.
     
  9. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Great post!

    I just don't think Mike could do it. 1978-1982 Holmes was a pretty darn good intimidator himself, the stare down itself would be epic, and Mike got psyched out even by that kind of thing (check out the Holyfield fights, especially the 2nd...Mike was partly punked off and beaten before it even began). Mike would come out storming, but Larry would be ready for that (as he was against Cooney, Shavers, Norton). Mike would eat the right in the 2nd round and go down, then quickly begin changing his strategy (ala the Tucker fight). Unfortunately, that would play right into Larry's hands as he moves and ties up Mike (ala Buster and Holy), only letting him go long enough to pop the jab and occasionally the right hand.

    Larry does the usual and gets careless during his typical midfight break, goes down from a fast and perfect right hand from Mike, gets up, and resumes control within a round (ala Snipes, Shavers, Weaver). Mike, a great finisher, attempts to end things in the 7th but Holmes holds on for dear life (despite taking another Godzilla right and using Mike to hold himself up lol) It goes so far as the ref deducting a point from Holmes for the excessive grabbing, but he makes it out for the 8th determined to viciously twist the jab into Mike's face again and again, and smother his outbursts. By the 9th Mike has completely changed, his forward movement (foiled time and time again by the jab, not to mention a couple of terrific uppercuts) has slowed to a cautious walk. The uppercut catches him as he attempts a monster right in the 10th and he goes down again, gets up and get the typical avalanche of Holmes rights until the ref stops it, Mike's eyes having gone somewhere else in the meantime.

    That's just how I see it, all respect as you made some very good points! Holmes wouldn't let knockdowns change his strategy for the worse. Mike did...he couldn't recuperate from that. Nor someone taking control from him in a fight. Either way, he'd be a different fighter...though I HATE Teddy Atlas and agreeing with him in any way LOL!
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  10. Shahpoor Saiq

    Shahpoor Saiq Member Full Member

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    Ok aight so like Larry Holmes was motivated to win this fight and he still trained and didn't party, take drugs and **** prostitutes all night long every day, it's still impressive for him to win the fight with a horrible flu but his situation was not the same as Tyson.

    Like I said before Mike had kicked Kevin Rooney, and Rooney kept Tyson in shape for every match and helped him when he was frustrated as I stated before.

    On the flight to Japan Mike cried and complained about how he had already beaten opponents that had won against Douglas and that he didn't want to fight him.

    So Mike said ''**** this'' and started to party and stopped training for the fight. His stamina got worse, he stopped going for the body, he didn't use combinations anymore and his head movement got a lot worse. He was so careless that he partied with Bobby Brown to 3 am on the fight day.

    I know I probably sound like a clueless Tyson fanboy but I didn't like Tyson that much and thought that he was a horrible person until I read his book. Man, it changed my whole opinion on him completely. I really recommend the book. You should borrow it from your local library and read it then come back to me and hopefully, you'll understand what I'm trying to tell you.´
     
  11. Bonecrusher

    Bonecrusher Lineal Champion Full Member

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    Great Post. I agree with a lot of what you said. If Holmes was able to survive a Tyson knockdown and the storm that would come right after then I could absolutely see it your way. The difference at the moment is I do not believe he would survive when he was inevitably dropped the storm that comes from Tyson after. Larry will get up from the knock down or possibly knockdowns without question but it’s Tyson’s ability to finish which I believe closes the show. But maybe he doesn’t, and if Tyson doesn’t close the show I can absolutely see it playing out the way you said. And you’re 100% right about the second Tyson Holyfield fight. Holyfield was completely inside of his head so much that Tyson tried to just outbox Holyfield in round 1 which would never work against Holyfield. He should’ve just bum rushed him like he did everyone, and the fact that he didn’t shows he was confused on how to fight Holyfield. But, when discussing that Tyson it’s like a completely different fighter to me than the one that fought in the 80s. Like I’ve already said a couple of times this is a very competitive hard fight to actually pick the winner, Tyson - Holmes with both men at their peak would’ve been something to see.
     
  12. It's Ovah

    It's Ovah I am very physically burn you Full Member

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    That's a fair enough breakdown. Like Bonecrusher mentioned in the post above, the main question mark for me is how well Holmes responds to getting hurt by Tyson (which I believe will happen at some point in the first half of the fight). If he's able to get on his bike or do his best Wlad octopus impression he might weather the storm and frustrate Tyson to the point that he might start making silly mistakes, which Holmes could capitalise on. But Holmes is going to be taking some horrendous punishment in pursuit of that gameplan, and if Tyson starts going crazy to the body of Holmes then I don't know if he'll be in any shape to do anything.

    He'll need a degree of luck and some silliness on the part of Tyson to really be in with a chance, IMO. And he'll need to do a ton of spoiling as well, while avoid getting caught big by anything from Tyson, which will entail a ton of caution and smart boxing which Holmes only intermittently showed against opponents past a certain level.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
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  13. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It would have been a great fight, I agree. I did notice, in the case of Holy II, Mike tried to bum rush him a couple of times. It just seemed that Holy was totally game in that second fight for whatever happened, he even took a couple of heavy shots just to keep coming in. Mike's frustration seemed to peak early. Holy just didn't give him a chance to capitalize on anything, and I believe the same would happen to Larry with Mike. Mike would get very aggravated due to Holmes' finesse and ring IQ (peak Mike was, what, 22? peak Larry was like 30).

    I also think the projected fight would rest on Holmes' recuperation from what would almost certainly be a knockdown from Mike. But hey, Mike couldn't hit him as hard as Shavers did....though Shavers wasn't quite the finisher Mike was.
     
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  14. Charlietf

    Charlietf Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Honestly i think that Tyson did hit just as hard as Shavers shot for shot with the difference that Tyson was much much faster,more accurate,he landed combinations of 3 or 4 shots not a single predictable and desperated right hand.
    Tyson was much more aggressive and a much greater finisher.
    Tyson destroys prime Holmes, yes by ko. It is not a close fight to the points
     
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  15. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Addict Full Member

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    oh good thinking
     
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