Prime Leonard vs todays Mayweather

Hands of Iron conceded the point. You should too -and begin by admitting that you are a Leonard cheerleader who wants to change Ray Leonard's nickname to Ray "Thunder" Leonard.

Read much? Take a look at Borges and about a million other sports writers who have their pets. Me? I have pet peeves.

Did you ever suspect that Hagler was fighting those guys in the early 80s because the big names weren't coming near him? Do you have the faintest idea of the number of fights Hagler had to fight and the risk he had to take to get to the championship?

Do you see really Leonard going down on down to Philly to make a name for himself for short money? Are you kidding?

The fact that Leonard would be favored to defeat Cuevas isn't the point. I think he'd have handled him too. The point is that Cuevas was the riskier challenge.

He wasn't the safer bet in retrospect. But Leonard was the favorite -at 9-5 odds which tells you loud and clear that Leonard was a pretty safe bet to beat Duran. He was expected to beat the smaller, older, slower, man and sports writers of the time did not believe that he carried his punch to 147. Those are facts, man.

That being said, Cuevas and Leonard had I understand come to terms to fight before Jose Sallyman stuck his mug in for Duran. So I have to lay off that point.

Duran did worse than quit. He disgraced himself, his country, his family, the sport, and Leonard -who deserved a real win. But your unwillingness to even mention the fact that Leonard exploited circumstances (including Duran's stupidity and greed) to his own advantage is telling.

What about Leonard-Hearns I being an all-time great performance did you miss? Leonard stalled Hearns for as long as he could That's smart for many reasons. Hearns could get toppled or could show *****s in his armor. And it isn't a "theory" -read the reports from the time and you'll find that your problem isn't with me, it's with the historical record.

A remarkable feat that loses some of its luster when you look closely

Leonard's demands:
1. 12 rounds, not 15.
2. A 20 foot ring
3. 10 ounce gloves instead of 8.

--Add to that the fact that Leonard watched and waited until Hagler slowed down. He admits it. You ignore all this and say he's just as much of a fearless friggin Mongolian warrior as Hagler. That's just silly.

Leonard was a great fighter who was in fact, moved along his career like a commodity -it was all about risk/reward and legacy.

That explains why he didn't fight Palomino coming up, why he chose Benitez over Cuevas, why he didn't fight Duran in the spring, why he didn't give Hearns a rematch for 9 years, why he only fought Hagler when Hagler had obviously slowed down and on his own terms.

...It also explains why he was willing to fight Benitez, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler in the first place!

If it's any consolation --my saying "anything but fearless" was off. But the point stands.

 

There you go again!

The Leonard thing should be settled. Now tell me where my "blind spots" are "regarding Duran."

 

& got yourself impaled on the sword of truth & you still carry the scars:hey

 

Hahaha. Well, hey, my arms are too short to box with God.

 

I don't read Borges. I know all about Borges. I read and enjoy your stuff which is why your Duran/Leonard fixation is a point of frustration for me because in every other instance, you're better than that.
I have every Hagler fight available on film and he is one of my favorite fighters to watch. I don't have a problem with who Hagler fought which is the unfortunate side to these debates. But my point stands. Leonard moved up for challenges, Hagler didn't. I'll grant that there was a fixation on the Four Kings and there was not much demand for Hagler-Spinks. But the fact remains, Leonard moving up to 160 after the long layoff took huge stones regardless of any negotiating concessions. That is every bit the jump that Hagler would have had to make to 175.
Angelo Dundee stated back then and many times after that they waited for Leonard-Hearns to get "juicy" before making the fight. Leonard had a massive ego. He was not ducking Hearns. I'm not sure why it's held against Leonard that he had shrewd management that looked after him and didn't attempt to screw him over.
Leonard represented his country and won the gold medal. Shame on him for not going down to Philly on short money when Cosell was riding his jock strap. His accomplishments dictated his early career path. Regardless, Leonard was not fed cupcakes early in his career: Ecklund, Mayweather, Shields, Muniz, Ranzany, Geraldo, Viruet, Gant, Price, etc. Again, Leonard was managed shrewdly. Why is that a mark against him?
Leonard was managed as are all fighters. His management just happened to be exceptional. He proved himself in the ring and passed more than enough challenges to dispel the perception that he was somehow manuevered to greatness. As an example, Duran's management witnessed Cervantes beat the **** out of Dejesus in '75. Now there's a fight that should have happened. It can be deduced that Duran's team wanted no part of Cervantes (I think Duran would've won anyway). I'm sure Duran would've have fought Cervantes if the fight was made. Same concept. Wonder what Ken Buchanan thinks of Duran's decisions after '72. I don't believe Duran ducked Buchanan, but a rematch was probably in order. Leonard's team didn't invent this stuff, they were just good at it and their fighter made them look good because he was always prepared to fight (with the exception of a few efforts well past prime).
Leonard had what at the time was career ending eye surgery and went on a several year coke binge. His comeback against Hagler was so outlandish that he had to sell it a bit. He didn't wait for Hagler to get old and no one thought Hagler was old at the time. That is revisionist history. The only thing wrong with Hagler was his ego and coming out orthodox turned out to be a fatal mistake. Sure he'd slowed a bit, but he was fighting a 5 year retired welterweight with a bad eye and a recent coke habit.
I'll concede that post Hagler, Leonard's career became very contrived and I can see fault with that, but not before then.

 

Fixation? I think that there's a phantom behind your frustration, my friend.

Robinson, Moore, and Burley figure in a lot more of my essays than Duran. In fact, I've done two essays out of 60 or 70 on Duran -"The Fourth Crown" which I would now amend considerably because I no longer recognize that defeat of Barkley as anything more than his defeating a top contender. That wasn't a damn crown he won, it was a belt that should've been exchanged for red suspenders.

I think that "The Fifth God of War" is what irks you. More to the point, it may be what I dug up that irks you. You tell me because I really don't sense any "fixation" I'm harboring about these two.

The fact that there are threads where I defend Leonard and attack Duran really kind of blows up your assumption, doesn't it? No?

Revisionist history? Is Leonard revising his own history to make himself look bad? No! He's being honest about his machinations during his career! Leonard may be proud of them --and that's fine, but I and most other boxing men prefer the "I'll fight anybody anytime anywhere" attitude.

We are not as far apart about Leonard as you assume. I think he was brilliant in his career until about 1991. I deduct "points" so to speak because he only had a relatively measly 40 fights and he was prone to behave like a politician more than a fighter outside of the ring but I know that he was a -great- fighter and count myself among his (honest) fans.

If you read my stuff you'll know that I've shined a much bigger spotlight on Robinson and his shenanigans in the Murderers' Row series, but guess what, I love that guy. I just don't believe that love should be blind.

Anyway, I appreciate the fact that you read my stuff. And the fact that I respect you as a poster and as an informed boxing man is what prompts this whole exercise. (Now my fingers are falling off. Can we end this?)

 

Sad, but true.

The sport has become dispicably diluted over the years. I simply still cannot fathom how to justify 17 weight divisions with four trinkets a pop. For the love of sanctioning fees and control. That said, surely Duran's win over Barkley was more than simply the win over a contender it reads on paper and that is due to the details laid out in the same piece. Even with so many belts to chase, there still hasn't been another former lightweight champion to duplicate the feat, much less at the respective ages and mileage of Duran and Barkley. One of my favorite fights ever.

 

Leonard didn't give Hearns a rematch in 9 years because he was at great risk of losing that fight, simple and plain. Even when he had to rematch Duran to get back his title, he chose to get Duran at his weakest. Leonard was a warrior in the ring, but outside the ring he was more of a politician.

 

Anyway.....


I think Leonard wins a narrow decision over Mayweather in this hypothetical. It's a really compelling match-up. It would be interesting to see Mayweather against a guy who could match him speed wise with the talent to match.

 

If Leonard fought the Floyd of last night I think he picks up a stoppage victory

 

It's abundantly clear that Mayweather isn't and has never been in Leonard's class.

 

Floyd Mayweather is a wonderful fighter, one of the very best ever, but he's not nearly as good as most people seem to think he is. Maybe last night helped some of the general fans to understand that (so many were expecting a shutout AND a knockout, despite the fact that Floyd had struggled with the only opponents he had ever fought that were on Cotto's level). You can be a great fighter and still not be in Ray Leonard's class, and that's the case with Floyd. He's really nowhere near him, and Ray's being the naturally bigger man just makes things even worse. Floyd would be little more than a nuisance to a peak SRL.

 

'one of the very best ever'

'not nearly as good as most people seem to think he I'd

You must be 'most people' then cobra :huh

 

Ray would beat any version of Floyd by stoppage at 147 or 154 IMO :good

 

Leonard wins a UD over last nights Mayweather, and infact any version.