Prime Manny Pacquiao vs Prime Floyd Mayweather Jr

I'm impressed

if this forum has a rep system, so much would be given out in this thread

great thread

 

Sometimes when people have a lot of passion about something, they will be bias.

A perfect example is when i ask my Pinoy friend who do you think would win?? Floyd or Manny, and without explanation or hesitation he spews out manny and Floyd duck this and that, runner this and that and he doesn't even follow boxing 1/8th of what i do.

I ask my family members who do not watch boxing that who do you think will win between Floyd and Pac and i got two i don't cares and 4 pick Floyd after watching 2 mins of footage a piece, while no one pick Pac.

Reason? One look like he is in control while the other guy is swinging like a mad man.

 

The strongest quality of Floyd is that he is great defensively and offensively, while Pac is just a great offensive fighter. Advantage Floyd.

The ability to adapt goes to Floyd. Floyd is always ad******g whilst Manny just get panicky when things doesn't go his way. Possibly the deciding factor just by this point alone.

 

Pacquiao who fought Cotto and DLH is a Beast..

 

Dude shut the **** up, Pac isn't among my favorite fighters all time and not in my top 5 favorite active fighters. I scored all 4 Marquez fights against him. You're just so obsessed with praising Floyd that you see any critique of his as an insult. I haven't said anything about either Manny or Floyd that isn't true in this thread. Again, I predicted what specific tactics Cotto was going to use to give Floyd the most competitive fight he's had in years when all the *****s were predicting that Floyd would walk him down and stop him easily.

 

I voted that Floyd will beat Pac's ass and ko him. Check my results if you want. Pac is too open, too easy to get hit. That should be obvious.

i'm just telling it like it is. Call it like i see it. Why trick my mind into believing something that is not true. Is simple math.

You tally up what fighter A is capable vs fighter B. Pros and Cons and the answer is right there.:deal F all that "whe he throws this he falls for this when the foot is there he throws that jab, blah blah blah"

compile a checklist if you want. I'm sure you will find that Floyd will have more checks in his column than Pac.

 

-First off, Mosley definitely moved more than Floyd usually does. Not that it's necessarily a good thing since Mosley was practically running. Of course he moved more than Floyd does, and to his detriment. And again, he was moving.

Marquez controls the center by circling more often than Floyd does. He moves more, he uses his legs more, Floyd uses his upper body a bit more and stands his ground.

I also specifically said that Manny started stepping over in the center instead of following his opponent following Marquez 3. Mosley was before that and it was obvious he was being led around. That's why Manny had more offensive success against Bradley and Marquez in the 4th. But Floyd doesn't often circle leftwards as he leans on his backfoot.

Bradley also circled more than Floyd usually does. His game-plan was flawed because he was too far outside, Marquez turns Pacquiao in-range.

-There's no point in going gif for gif, I have plenty more but doing that won't clarify the broader pattern. I don't see how you can deny that Marquez doesn't throw with his opponents more often. As a shorter fighter he constantly has to exchange and time shots in between. Floyd also throws with opponents but more frequently rolls first. It's typical of a philly shell defense. Make a poll if you'd like.

-Marquez is not more stationary than Floyd, that is absurd. Floyd gets backed up much more often, Marquez's lateral movement is key to setting up his counter-punches. I think it's clear from statements like these that you just don't watch Marquez's style that closely, it boggles the mind to hear someone say that Marquez is more stationary. The entire 3rd Pacquiao fight was fought in the center of the ring, as was the 2nd and most of the 1st. Meanwhile Floyd's back is to the ropes against Ortiz repeatedly in 4 rounds. Floyd is great off the ropes so it works for his style but that's irrelevant to the simple fact that Floyd is more stationary when circling or moving backwards.

-Like I said, Floyd is better Than Bradley defensively, and will make Manny miss, and will use the straight right to the body with great effect. But there are other moments in the GIF fight where Floyd ducks without stepping over, and in the case of the GIF you posted, Ortiz is throwing without stepping forward into his shots like Manny does, so it's inconclusive.


I'm not here to argue Manny wins, I'm here to point out that Pac has a chance based on the way his angled offense matches up with Floyd's guard. Even if Floyd wins my point is that I'm curious as to what Floyd would do, and there's no consensus on that. Even people rushing to Floyd's defense in this thread are visualizing different things for Floyd to use, and that's because Pac's style is a package Floyd hasn't specifically dealt with before. The average fan could see an argument either way back in their primes, and many of those fans changed their opinions because of the Marquez fights, and that's faulty logic because the key to JMM's success was constant leftward movement and Floyd simply doesn't use that. That's my only argument.

 

Tally up Douglas and Tyson, tally up Mayorga and Forrest, tally up Judah and Baldomir, tally up Pascal and Dawson, tally up Froch and Bute. That's not an argument. That's a primitive way to predict a fight. I don't understand why you're on a forum if you don't like to read descriptions on how fighter's fight.

I really don't care what your prediction in the poll is, just don't get all butthurt and call me a ******* just because I'm analyzing a fight beyond a vague listing of attributes like it's some kind of video game.

 

and that's why people lose their money.

They over-think it.

 

Countless other times Tim ducked that left in that fight. It was either that,take a step back or just turn. Also Moving right isnt a problem if your are comfortable with it which floyd is. Again getting to caught up in positiong.

 

Look at the state of the opponents.

 

I wouldn't say problem but I would say risk, more of a risk than moving to your left. If you time it wrong you can fall in line with the left straight, it's happened before with Floyd leaning back in his stance or circling to the advantage of the opponent.

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Its a non issue to me. The shots you speak of that Floyd got hit with came as a result of him waiting on the opponent to throw. The lefts Zab and Chop chop hit him with is the same reason Juan and Shane hit him with rights. Standing there waiting, Unnecessarily playing D before needed. Nothing to do with the angle, if he is jabbing or anything else he doesnt get hit with those.

 

-I disagree, it wasn't solely the fact that Marquez obliged Pacquiao, his footwork was definitely improved. Bradley spent most of the fight circling and trying to control Manny with a jab, only in the clinch and in spots in the later rounds did he step to Manny.

-Floyd's reach is obviously an asset. But I also think Marquez's similar size helped him, since Marquez likes to duck down, it makes Manny's hands drop further down and opens up shots down the middle because of the way he changes levels. Floyd ducks down but usually throws from an upright position. It's easier for Manny to duck and slip shots coming from up high, or at the very least see them coming and brace for them.

Also, Bradley was trying to jab at a distance, and if you circle from a far, it allows the aggressor to get lead foot positioning on the outside by just stepping over in the center of the ring. Marquez being short means that when Marquez side-steps him, he goes "behind" him. Morales said that failing to do this is a fundamental error most of Pac's opponents make.

This is a case where circling at a distance might be less advantageous than circling in-range. Floyd had reach advantages over Corley and Judah and did not get the preferred angle until he came forward and out-fought them at mid-range.

I don't think I'm overemphasizing angles because they are a focal point of setting up the rear hand. Morales and Marquez (moreso Marquez, Morales used aggression) both used angles to set up their rear hands and neutralize the left. Like Marquez said in their face-off, "It's not just a war of the hands, it's a war of the feet."

-We as fans all know that Manny has familiar feints, but like Floyd says, "it's different when you're in there." Marquez fought Manny 4 times and still faced adversity despite getting more familiar with him as time went on. Floyd will have watched tape, but early on is where the rhythm of the fight might be decided, and Floyd takes time to fully adjust.

-Manny will try to set the pace, then Floyd will adjust one way or another, so I envision the fight being competitive early, and then there are two questions; one is how defensive Floyd becomes after Manny comes out fast as usual, and how long that trend carries on, because it could favor Manny in the eyes of the judges even if he doesn't land much; and two, once Floyd adjusts, whether Manny can steal a round or two late in the fight, or gets too damaged to be able to recover.

If Manny lands a Judah-esque left early behind his 1-1-2 and makes it count, and drops Floyd, that's a whole new dynamic. It's an extra point, and a huge psychological advantage. Floyd already has reservations about Manny's physical abilities, and while I don't think he'd crumble and lose confidence, I think there's a chance he'd become excessively defensive or maybe even excessively aggressive.

I don't think it's unrealistic to say a shot like this from Manny could drop Floyd and at least make things interesting:

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This is why I find the fight intriguing and important, the first 4 rounds would determine the unique technical and psychological dynamics of the fight.

But which does he get hit with more often? Left straights are a pattern that show up more than any other shot IMO. Feints are what make Floyd reluctant to throw, so there's time before he adjusts and finds the remedy, and in that time, he's vulnerable to get hit. He outfought Judah and Corley and Mosley, I'm not sure he'd be smart to try and walk Manny down. And in fact the second time Mosley did hit him, it was Floyd reacting to Mosley's jab with a left hook and leaving his head exposed by not throwing quite at shoulder level, so he can get hit when throwing. Cotto landed a few straight lefts in the heat of battle as well after Floyd himself threw. But more importantly in ANY southpaw-orthodox match-up, the angle is always important. That's a fundamental of boxing.