Prime Manny Pacquiao vs Prime Floyd Mayweather Jr

Half of those people are on Pac's resume and factored greatly into his historic rise, and he fought most of them after they had been beaten by Floyd.

And how is that "Margarito/Pac" get credit for destroying Cotto, when we know that it was primarily Margarito that softened him up? At least he had some time to recover for Floyd.

 

Cotto did better against Mayweather than Pacquiao and Floyd fought Cotto after Manny did. It's factor of his resume plus his INACTIVITY.

 

None of that tells me how Pac can beat Mayweather in the ring. Marquez can't beat Hoya, Cotto and probably couldn't knock Hatton out in 2 rds yet he knocked Pac the **** out.

 

That`s because anything could happen in a fight. Just like will never know who would win between Pac and Floyd. We don`t know if a punch could surprise us and one of them gets ktfo.

 

Always felt Floyd would stop him Pac late.

Shots you don't see have the most effect and I just feel Pac would jump into something.. most likely a straight right hand that Mayweather throws with great timing & accuracy.

 

You are an utter tit.

Anyone who thinks De La Hoya won that fight is deluded.

Cotto got spanked.

Ortiz used to give Pac trouble time and again in sparring according to Roach, Mayweather was tee'ing off on him when he wanted & picking his shots off hence him getting frustrated n we all know what happened next.

Baldomir was lineal at the time after beating Judah.

What punch did Manny stop Hatton with? Oh yeah the left hook.. the shot Mayweather laid the blue print with.

 

Circling more doesn't mean moving more. Floyd doesn't circle much but he pulls straight back a lot. Even though he only does that in brief spurts, he does it very frequently and if you add up all those "pull back" moves he probably covers more ground than Mosley or Marquez during a fight.

Manny still followed Marquez around in the 4th, it's just that Marquez decided to plant his feet more and go for the KO in their last fight.

Height has nothing to do with it, it's about timing and reflexes. This thing requires both and Marquez is lacking in the reflexes department, unlike Floyd.

If Floyd backs up more often then that means he moves more. Marquez is known for being a stationary counterpuncher who doesn't move much but moves efficiently. Showing more lateral movement doesn't necessarily mean moving more. Like I said above, Floyd moves mostly in straight lines but covers more ground. This is the same difference between Wlad and Vitali Klitschko.

Doesn't matter whether or not Ortiz was stepping into his shot because there was no target to hit. I think it shows that moving to your right against a southpaw can be safe.

Of course Manny would have a chance, it would be a very interesting fight and obviously we can't use the Manny/Marquez fights too much to analyze this matchup. There are things Marquez used that Floyd doesn't use and vice versa. A lot of people argue that what Floyd brings to the table would be even more difficult to handle for Manny.

Because Pac is a better athlete than Marquez, Floyd wouldn't have a disadvantage in athleticism.

 

Yup. JMM landed a few in the third but I think he found it too risky, range makes it more available. In that same translation Morales said he'd catch Manny pull out with that straight right to the body.

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It really was unreal how Morales chased him down like a dog around the ring.

-Manny landed his most memorable shots when Tim was trying to get away from Manny, not when stepping to him.

-The foodspeed alone will allow him to close the distance early, he doesn't have to be Tyson. Hatton didn't have much of a jab and wasn't kept on the outside until late.

-The angle matters until you're too close. I don't see Floyd walking Manny down, and if he does he's at risk of getting hit with something big. Which again makes the fight interesting and not so conclusive as to how it would play out.

-Angle is the biggest factor in southpaw-orthodox matchups to open up a shot. Range is another factor but again, is Floyd going to smother Floyd like JCC or something? I find it unlikely. And I also find it unlikely he'll avoid Manny closing the distance from 12 rounds when he's been backed up time and time again.

-Marquez is an inferior athlete but has the better fundamentals for fighting southpaws IMO. His mechanics and the way they differ from Floyd's are what this discussion is about, athletics doesn't support or detract from either argument inherently.

Why does Floyd get hit so much coming forward against a southpaw when that's never his MO? He gets hit when the angle is not in his favor. Floyd, a counter-puncher and pure boxer, seems not to like dealing with southpaw angles and just out-fighting them instead. The range is why he has success and wins, the angles are gone.

-As a southpaw the jab matters much less, the lead hands run into each other. You can't back up a fighter of the opposite stance with a jab the same way you could with one of the same stance. Floyd's head is in line with an orthodox jab, his shoulder is in line with a southpaw jab. A southpaw jab does little. But like Judah showed, early on, a 1-1-2 has the capacity to land square. If Pac lands a shot like that early Floyd could hit the canvas, and that's already a dynamic we haven't seen, Floyd properly put on his ass.

-Of course Floyd isn't going to shell up ineffectively for the remainder of the rounds, but going to the psychological aspect of it, Floyd obviously has massive respect for Pac's raw physical capabilities. I'm not someone who would call Floyd scared, but the way he goes on about how Manny can knock Mosley down and Cotto can't speaks volumes about his assessment of Manny's power (which IMO is kind of overrated.) But if Manny lands the same shot Judah did, and drops him, I can't say Floyd is going to just get back on his horse without at least a significant amount of trepidation. Judges are already skewed in favor of the most active fighter in this era, so if Manny gains momentum early, he can take advantage on activity. He probably can't sustain it but that's why I emphasize he'll have to rally late in the fight or prepare for a counter if Floyd comes forward.

-I know Cotto was landing jabs, and also turned southpaw to land a few straight lefts. Floyd's guard leaves his head in line for both.

-I'm not judging this based on anything besides what they've displayed in the ring. They're not average fighters, they are both ATG's, but IQ doesn't mean much if you can't quantify it. Habits mean much more IMO. Floyd has habits, Manny has patterns he likes to follow. The result of the clash is not obvious.

-Pulling back is not something to celebrate, it's the exact flaw I'm critiquing and which led him to get clocked against Judah and Corley. No way does pulling back cover more ground than circling, and besides, it's not about how much ground is covered, but in what direction. Straight back = straight in line for a left straight.

-Manny was made to follow by Marquez's movement, but Manny's own footwork was vastly improved and he got lead foot positioning far more often. This is evident in the success he had lining up his shots.

-Of course height has to do with it, Marquez makes himself small and throws his punches from a low angle, and usually stays close to Manny so that when he turns them he still controls the angle. Floyd is quicker than JMM but Marquez couldn't pull off the counters he does if his reflexes were lacking.

-Floyd backs straight up more, he doesn't move his feet more. Floyd is far more stationary when counter-punching, this is so obvious I can't believe it's a point of contention. Floyd's shell is most secure for rolling shots when both feet are planted, and that's what he most often does. He does not show more movement circling and changing the angle than Marquez. Marquez relies much more on his legs and controls the center much more often.

-Stepping to your right against a southpaw is doable, but less sustainable than moving leftward IMO (Floyd's height helps here). Ortiz was right-hand dominant so most of his shots just ran into the shoulder, and for some reason was aiming for that shoulder as was instructed by his trainer. Ultimately Ortiz's footwork is basic and much more limited than Manny's and did him no favors against Floyd.

-Mayweather's a much better athlete than JMM, but as you say the dynamic is different.

Ultimately I think we agree, my point is not so much that Manny would win but that Mayweather's adjustment would vary greatly from what Marquez's was. People saying that Mayweather would have success because of what we saw in the Marquez fights are ignoring the nuts and bolts of what happened in the ring between the two.



*In any case I'm exhausted discussing the topic, it's not that important to me and I hate going back and forth against multiple posters even though it's been a good exchange. It's been great but I need a break, sorry.

 

No problem, thank you for this great discussion.

 

This, and I know you're a big Marquez fan :good

Floyd has too much range and too many tools in the shed for a fighter like Manny, who's power is a bit overrated, as is his combination punching.

 

aahh....another feel good thread by *****s and some pachaters on a hypoyhetical win by floyd.

 

If this were 2011 with all your buddies and Pac alts the poll might have been close.


But you all ran once Pac's hype machine ended. :-(

 

here on esb.....even from way, way back, pac loses on every hypothtical matchups.

this fantasy and ifs and could haves are all *****s and pachaters domain. :good

 

50/50 fight with the result being a SD for either fighter.