Prime Mayweather vs Hagler of the SRL fight?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MoneyMay1, Nov 24, 2021.

  1. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It was a close fight, the 118-110 scorecard stunk it up for me ... BUT ,, SRL deserves all the credit in world , he fairly won the fight ...and Hagler just blew it imo .. Dont see why Hagler fans come to his rescue? He blew it ... He has only himself to blame for taking SRL that lightly .. coming out righty? wtf .. hell it didnt work the first round so why do it in the 2nd as well? He underestimated Ray and thought he could easily outbox him .... I love Hagler but thats kinda how it went down imo .. He wasnt going to be the more popular fighter in the fight so he just should have stuck to Business , not the mind games .. you aint going to beat the master at that
     
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  2. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    Mayweather didn't need to run. His footwork, defense, and punch selection were better than Leonard's, so he was allowed to be more economical with his footwork. Leonard's footwork against Hagler was not optimal. It was what Leonard needed to do given his own limitations.
     
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  3. Mark Dunham

    Mark Dunham Active Member Full Member

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    You write extremely well!
     
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  4. Mark Dunham

    Mark Dunham Active Member Full Member

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    I was wondering why Steele allowed so many fouls from Leonard. as bad as the ref was, those two blind mice were the real threat
     
  5. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I understand what you’re saying. But the skilled smaller man still has to employ the right strategy.

    The skilled smaller man has to possess the attributes required.

    Marvin had declined. But it would still have been a bad stylistic match up for Floyd, as he didn’t possess Ray’s offence or level of confidence. And realistically, Marvin wouldn’t have employed the tactics that he did against Ray.

    Floyd never fought a naturally bigger southpaw, who had great strength, power and reach over him.
     
  6. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    Do me a favor: Count out the number of southpaws beaten by Mayweather who were former, current, or future champions and figure out if there's another fighter in history who has exceeded that number.
     
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  7. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    All of the above is completely irrelevant.

    You are trying to debate on statistics, without applying context, whilst also ignoring how the fighters in question would have matched up stylistically.

    It doesn’t matter if Floyd was undefeated and Leonard wasn’t.

    It doesn’t matter if Floyd had greater longevity.

    Floyd does not possess any record which would have made him a favourite over Marvin Hagler at 160 pounds.

    He never fought at that weight.

    He never fought a guy like Marvin in his entire career.

    He didn’t have the offence or the confidence needed to have out pointed Hagler.

    Beating faded greats at the lower weights tell us nothing.


    It should have been obvious to you why I brought up Maidana:

    Styles.

    Canelo was better than Maidana, but Maidana was the harder fight for Floyd.


    You think that Floyd could have beaten Marvin, based upon you thinking that Floyd was a better fighter than Ray.

    Yet it’s not that simple. Because even if you genuinely believe that, it doesn’t take into account how they would have matched up stylistically.


    So the point was:

    Even if you personally believe that Floyd was a better fighter than Ray Leonard due to his stats etc, it does NOT mean that he could have replicated Leonard’s success against Marvin.

    Styles make fights.

    Floyd did not have the style or the attributes to have beaten Marvin at 160 pounds.
     
  8. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You are comparing Ray to Floyd. But you are not taking into account any of the following:

    How Floyd would specifically have matched up with Marvin.

    The fact that Floyd never fought a guy of Marvin’s calibre.

    The fact that Floyd never fought a guy with Marvin’s attributes.

    The fact that Floyd only fought above WW on 3 occasions.

    How Floyd handled his career and the psychological aspect.


    Basically: You have pretty much ignored everything relevant.


    You say that Floyd had a better punch selection than Ray.

    1. I don’t agree with that.

    2. Even if it was true, in order to have beaten Marvin, he would have had to have fought very offensively in order to have banked the majority of the rounds, and to have dissuaded Marvin from pressing him.


    Kindly explain to me how realistic you think that was, and how it would/could have happened.


    Floyd was a safety first fighter with hand issues.

    He wouldn’t even let Canelo weigh-in at 154.

    So are we supposed to believe that the same guy who wouldn’t let Canelo weigh 154, would have fought Marvin Hagler offensively?

    How realistic do you think that would have been?

    Are we supposed to also believe that Marvin would have stood off of Floyd and not pressed him?

    How realistic do you think that would have been?
     
  9. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No.

    He writes things in the same manner as what you do.

    He writes things that have no relevance.


    Neither one of you have offered a breakdown.

    Your only beliefs that Floyd would have beaten Marvin, is based on the following:


    1. You think that Floyd was a better fighter than Ray.

    2. He thinks that Floyd would have beaten Ray, based on the fact that Floyd easily beat Canelo, who was of a similar size to Marvin.


    Skewed logic with zero thought put into how they’d realistically have matched up, based upon their specific styles and characteristics.
     
  10. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    I believe I asked a favor of you earlier, and you can’t handle that favor.
     
  11. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I can acknowledge the fact that Floyd had great success against southpaws.

    I watched his entire career.

    Now you can also acknowledge the fact that Floyd was a safety first fighter who only fought above WW 3 times in his entire career.

    You can acknowledge the fact that Floyd had a significant reach advantage over most of his opponents.

    You can acknowledge the fact that Marvin Hagler would have brought something to the ring that he’d never seen before.

    Marvin was an ATG MW, with elite skills, who’d have possessed a bigger reach, with significant advantages in strength and power, which he’d have used to maximum effect.


    You can quote Floyd’s stats all day long. But what you can’t do, is to give me a realistic breakdown of how Floyd could/would have specifically have beaten Marvin Hagler at 160 pounds.

    Again, Floyd would have needed to have been offensive against Marvin in order to have beaten him.

    Yet he doesn’t posses the attributes which would have been required.

    It wasn’t in his nature to fight guys of that calibre, at that kind of weight.

    All of which makes those other fights/stats against fellow southpaws completely insignificant.


    You say that Floyd PROBABLY would have beaten Marvin.

    Yet 6 pages in, you still haven’t been able to tell us how.
     
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  12. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You are hiding behind an irrelevant statistic, which has no relevance of how a fight between Floyd and Marvin would have played out.

    Come and answer my points.

    Come and try and refute what I’ve said.

    If you have the answer to your question, then tell me.

    Give me the number.

    It makes no difference.

    If you want, we can pretend that it’s 50?

    Let’s pretend that Floyd beat 50 southpaws in his career.


    Just tell me how he’d have been able to have beaten Marvin Hagler at 160 pounds.

    Tell me how their styles would have meshed.

    Tell me why you think he’d PROBABLY have beaten Marvin.
     
  13. scandcb

    scandcb Active Member Full Member

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    We all know deep down that Hagler would have won.

    But let's face it, Mayweather would have never boxed Hagler at 160lbs anyway.
     
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  14. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What’s the answer then?

    Without doing any research, I can only think of 4.

    Manny
    Zab
    Sharmba
    Guerrero

    I can’t think of any others.

    I also thought about other fighters at other weights.

    I believe that Hopkins, Toney, and Wlad have got 3 each.

    I think Roy has got 4.

    Interesting question really.

    I’ll let you tell me the answer tomorrow, before you then hopefully tell me the relevance between Floyd vs Marvin.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  15. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

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    Manny
    Zab
    Sharmba
    Corley
    Victor Ortiz
    Guererro

    That's six. And Oscar was a converted southpaw.

    Nevermind that a pudgy, stumpy, blown up lightweight gave Hagler problems by fighting tactically.