pretty much everyone here has mentioned the Hagler of the Sugar Ray fight was in very poor to shot condition. We could even hear it throughout the broadcast. Why would you still deny it and say things like "he is still dangerous" Then further pose questions like "How would Floyd beat him?" So, how would Floyd beat Hagler? The same way you beat any fighter devoid of speed, reflexes, legs, and timing. The way 7 - 0 Leon Spinks beat Ali in the championship rounds. The way Michael Spinks beat 48 - 0 Holmes in 1985. I'm not saying Floyd would necessarily beat him, only that he has a realistic chance You can't just refer to one fight in which Floyd struggled and say he hasn't a chance. Leonard struggled with Bonds, Howard, Kalule, Lalonde, and he did well with Hagler and lest you forget, anything Leonard could do, Floyd does better. He has the record to prove it.
More silliness from you. The definition of a shot fighter, is a fighter who is no longer capable of performing at the highest level. A fighter who is only a mere shell of their former self. Mike Tyson was shot against Danny Williams. Muhammad Ali was shot against Trevor Berbick. Marvin was not shot against Ray Leonard. He just chose the wrong tactics. Also, MANY people had Marvin winning the fight, and Ray went onto to have some success afterwards for a few years. Yes, Marvin had slipped a bit. But he wasn’t in any way finished. Of course he was still dangerous. We are now NINE pages in, and you still HAVEN’T said how Floyd would win. You still haven’t told us. All you can muster is that Floyd could equal what Ray did, and that he has the better stats etc. You have said nothing. Again, it does not matter if you think that Floyd was better than Ray. The only two things that are relevant here are the following: 1. Analysing how Ray was able to beat Marvin Hagler. 2. Asking yourself the question of how Floyd could have replicated that victory based upon his own style and characteristics. All throughout the thread you have tried to debate on statistics, instead of looking specifically at how their styles would have meshed. Once again, Floyd only fought at JMW just 3 times in his entire career. Unchartered waters. Once again, Floyd was a safety first fighter who had hand issues at the higher weights. Once again, Floyd had confidence issues, where he swerved certain fighters, and where he’d only fight guys like Canelo at a C-W. So: How would Floyd specifically have beaten Marvin Hagler? Yes, we know that you rate Floyd as an equal. However, take into account the following factors: Ray Leonard threw blazing combinations to deter Marvin from coming forward. Floyd did NOT do that. Ray Leonard danced, circled and feinted all around the ring. Floyd did NOT do that. Ray possessed power to give Marvin something to think about. Floyd didn’t possess ANY power that would have concerned Marvin. Ray possessed SUPREME confidence in fighting Marvin. Floyd WOULDN’T have. Ray was very offensive, where again, he threw fast flurries in order to bank the rounds and to catch the eye of the judges. Floyd DIDN’T fight like that. He liked to pot shot lesser fighters. So you thinking that Floyd has a better record than Ray Leonard has zero relevance when looking specifically at how Floyd personally would have fared against Marvin. You are just assuming that Floyd would have had a great chance, whilst completely ignoring what I’ve written above. Yes, Floyd had elite level skills. He’s one of the greatest of all time. Yes, on a P4P basis, he’s certainly up there with Leonard etc. The issue is: P4P and H2H are two very different things. Many people here would rank Floyd higher than Thomas Hearns. It doesn’t mean that Floyd could have beaten Hearns in a H2H match up though, as it would have been a terrible match up for him stylistically. At the end of the day, as great as Floyd was, he simply didn’t have the attributes to have been favoured over Marvin Hagler.
These guys have given no specifics for 9 pages. “I think that Floyd was a better fighter than Ray Leonard” “Anything that Ray could do, Floyd could do” Just meaningless quotes. Neither of them have discussed how their styles would have meshed.
Even though Hagler had lost a beat and started slow, I still had him winning against Leonard. Mayweather could take some early rounds, but I don't see him having the power to really keep Hagler at bay after the first half. Mayweather goes into defense mode and Hagler overcomes that early rounds deficit to walk away with a close but clear decision.
It's all about the slickness. We know Floyd can't hurt Hagler at all. But when you can't hit your opponent and your opponent is scoring on you, you are going to lose. Could a past it Whitaker hurt Oscar? Nope. Yet Oscar, a clearly bigger guy struggled with him because he had such a hard time hitting him. Leonard never came close to hurting hagler but Hagler just couldn't hit him enough. It would not be shocking to me that Hagler simply can't find Floyd and gets potshotted to a UD loss.
Correct. This is the issue here: Because these guys see Floyd and Leonard as being equals on a P4P basis, they are just assuming that Floyd could have replicated Leonard’s win. Yet Floyd didn’t possess the attributes that Ray had. Realistically, he’d never have fought Marvin confidently and in an offensive manner. Like you’ve noted, as soon as Marvin had put his foot on the pedal, Floyd would have shelled up and gone into a defensive mode. We are talking here about a guy who had no power, and a guy who had just 3 fights at JMW, one of which that was at a C-W. These guys don’t consider the styles, the characteristics of the fighters, the psychological aspect of things or anything. In their world, the same guy who wouldn’t fight a prime Manny and Canelo at 154, would somehow have gone on and beaten one of the greatest MW’s in the history of the sport.
Once again, realistically, how confident would Floyd have been in fighting Marvin Hagler at MW? Once again, realistically, how offensive minded would Floyd have been in fighting Marvin Hagler at MW? Did you watch Floyd’s career in its entirety? The guy wouldn’t fight a prime Manny Pacquiao. The guy wouldn’t let Canelo weigh 154 pounds. The guy never fought at MW. The guy only fought at JMW three times in his entire career. The guy was a safety first fighter with hand issues at JMW. The guy had never seen a guy like Marvin Hagler before. Take all of the above into account and again ask yourself the above 2 questions. The psychological aspect of things would have been huge. This isn’t an X Box game. It’s real life. Marvin found it hard to hit Ray, because Ray used footwork that Floyd didn’t possess, he used blistering combinations that Floyd didn’t possess, and Marvin went with the wrong tactics in the early part of the fight where he stood off of Ray and showed him too much respect. In order for Floyd to have beaten Marvin, he’d have needed similar attributes and a similar game plan to what Floyd had. Yet he didn’t possess the attributes that Ray had. He didn’t possess the style that Ray had. If you seriously think that Floyd could have beaten Marvin Hagler by pot shotting him, then you must have taken some mind altering substances. Who on earth could have pot shotted Marvin Hagler to a decision win? It’s not even remotely realistic. It’s absolutely laughable. A fantasy. Floyd pot shotted smaller, lesser fighters. Marvin was an ATG MW. When he switched tactics against Ray, he turned the fight in his favour. To this day, many people believe he won. Marvin simply wouldn’t have allowed Floyd to have pot shotted him. He’d have driven forward and turned the bout into a fight. Marvin would have been a significant favourite based upon how they’d have matched up stylistically.
Marvin might have been the favorite but that was the case with Leonard Confidence has nothing to do with the outcome. Floyd would see what we see; a fighter in decline, a dinosaur similar to Holmes of the Spinks fight, Ali of 1978. I didnt see Leon Spinks with confidence issues, especially going the 15 round distance. These things you bring up are NON issues. What is the issue is how far Marvin was gone, and you would rather just not bring it up Marvin is too slow at this point to handle speedsters. I for one am glad he bowed out before he was matched up with Nunn, a truly gifted talent.
Ha! You do make me laugh. Confidence has nothing to do with it? It’s a non factor? SMH Confidence has EVERYTHING to do with it. A fighter’s entire approach depends upon it. Their strategy etc. I’ll tell you exactly what Floyd would have seen: An ATG MW, coming off of stoppage wins over Hearns and Mugabi. A guy who was bigger, stronger and more powerful. A guy who had a bigger reach. A guy who was a southpaw. A guy who wouldn’t have respected his power. A guy who wouldn’t have been intimidated by him, who’d have possessed supreme confidence. A guy who he’d simply never seen before. Leon Spinks was a rival HW to Ali, who had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Floyd was a former SFW who was nearing the end of his career, who had his reputation and his zero on the line. Marvin had far more left in the tank than what Ali had. Leon Spinks was more confident than what Floyd was. Do you really want me to list all of the BS that Floyd pulled throughout his career? It’s okay saying that Marvin couldn’t handle speedsters. But they would had to have been offensively minded speedsters. Floyd wasn’t offensively minded. He was a safety first boxer. I keep telling you the same thing over and over: Floyd would not have fought Marvin Hagler offensively, where he’d have hit him with the blistering combinations that Ray did. It is completely unrealistic. Floyd didn’t fight in that manner, and he wouldn’t even fight lesser fighters at their true weight classes. You are living in a fantasy world. You’re just assuming that Floyd could do things that other fighters did, despite the fact that he never fought in that same way. In order to have beaten Marvin Hagler, Floyd would have had to have employed a similar strategy to what Ray did. Do you agree with that? Yes or no? Again, the issue is: Floyd COULD NOT have replicated Ray’s strategy, because he didn’t possess Ray’s attributes or his style. He didn’t possess the same characteristics. It doesn’t matter how highly you rate Floyd on a P4P basis. The only thing that’s relevant here, is how Floyd would have matched up stylistically with Marvin Hagler at MW. Nothing else is relevant. It doesn’t matter if Floyd was better than the guys who Marvin lost to or struggled with. It’s not about that. Styles make fights. The stylistic match up would significantly have favoured Marvin Hagler.
Yeah, but on the other side, I don't think Floyd gets blown away here, either. To be fair to Floyd, I think some of the attributes that he did have would keep him in the fight. Floyd was a sharp enough hitter to keep some bigger guys from rampaging over him; he moved very well and his defensive reflexes were exceptional. Plus, Hagler sometimes could overthink things in the early portion of fights with skilled boxers. Floyd may not fire as many flashy flurries as SRL, but his hands were still fast enough to probably ensure that Hagler becomes a bit pensive in the early going. The one thing that Hagler could do was to switch hit; an on point Floyd might be able to make adjustments but once Hagler got into a groove he was tough to dissuade. So, it's Floyd going on the defense and trying to potshot against a guy who throws harder from both stances. It's a bit of an ask for someone with Floyd's style.
I don’t think that he would have gotten blown out either. But I don’t think that he’d have been offensive enough in order to have won the fight. I also don’t believe that he had anything in order to have deterred Marvin from fighting offensively and aggressively, which in turn would have put him on the defensive. I think that Marvin would have gotten into his groove and backed him up. Floyd just didn’t possess the size, style or characteristics which would have been required in order to have gotten him the win. It’s just a bad stylistic match up for him.
