Prime Mike Tyson (88) vs Prime Muhammad Ali (66)

Tyson was really young and was getting better all the time, had he stuck with Rooney he would have been amazing despite his height, Tyson would have beaten any fighter under 220lbs while trained by Rooney, the same applies to Holmes.

 

Lol.

 

He was about half a year removed from his first title win, like Ali was when he faced Cooper. A fight you mentioned.

The rest is just you guess work and doesn't mean anything to anyone else. You haven't really answered any of the points I made, which I take as a tacit agreement.

 

Tyson would have destroyed Cooper but my point is valid, Tyson was a work in progress he hadn`t peaked by the time he sparked Berbick and looked far better in that fight than Ali did v Cooper in 63.

 

He "peaked" against Ali he didn't prime.

Frazier started beating contenders and fringe contenders in 1966.

He entered the top 10 in 1966.

He became the top contender for Ali's title sometime between 67 and early 68.

He whooped highly rated contenders in 68 and 69 while retaining his spot as the top contender.

The only fights he had between the end of 69 and Ali were Ellis and Foster and he was already good enough to flog the pair of them. He didn't suddenly find himself in 1970 and neither fight significantly advanced him, not even close.

Frazier's prime started well before Ali and he was indeed an "elite" fighter in the 60's Mark. He probably beat more contenders in the 60's than he did in the 70's.

 

Frazier was a work in progress during the 60`s, just about coming to the boil so to speak.

 

He was boiling before 1970 he just needed the right opposition to showcase it against. Routine outings against Ellis and Foster (less than 6 rounds total) didn't magically take him from simmering to boiling when he stepped in with The Greatest.

Jimmy Ellis hadn't lost for over half a decade and was coming off a string of wins against Martin, Bonavena, Quarry and Patterson yet was still an overwhelming 6-1 underdog against Frazier who hadn't yet even fought in the 70's.

This is rock solid proof of just how highly Frazier was thought of BEFORE 1970.

Don't be tricked.

 

Obviously I disagree WB.

I don’t see prime Ali as any less adaptable in potential - he simply didn’t have to adapt so much for deteriorations in speed and mobility until later.

Prime Ali was already beginning to do things he later called upon more frequently in his comeback. Holding Chuvalo and letting him bang to the body - Ali was already tough and he certainly was already training for taking shots while on the ropes - even when prepping for the Liston rematch.

Also, I thought a heavier Ali put on an excellent display of power punching vs Chuvalo - but it was Chuvalo after all - and even so, Ali hurt and drove Chuvalo back on several occasions.

I wasn’t saying Mikey T was one dimensional absolute but compared to Ali he was much less multi faceted, imo - particularly over the longer haul.

I wasn’t banging on Mike’s chin, I rate it highly - I was pointing out that he got hit often enough to rate that chin - which bites into the assumed level of quality of his defence -

Sure, all boxers tire, but when Mike tired in equal proportion, his high energy game notably suffered - with little else to fall back on - and certainly, even though Frazier’s style consumed a lot of energy, Joe could keep it up for 15 if necessary.

Imo, we saw Mike become discouraged in several fights - even if that includes fights when he wasn’t prime - even when they have little left many ATGs still fight for all their worth, even when defeat is the only likely outcome.

Perhaps Liston’s chin wasn’t quite as solid by the time of Miami but it certainly wasn’t glass and Liston still made favourable comment on Ali’s power - and Sonny had previously tasted the full force of Cleve Williams punch -

I’ll just add, if it came down to a points decision, I see no chance of Mike being the victor.

 

Ha, ha. You keep on cherry picking fights that suit your agenda.

Ali-Liston is a more apt comparison to Tyson-Berbick, seeing how it is was the first title fight for both. And Tyson looked better against Berbick than in any fight bar maybe the one against Spinks.

 

Mid 1965 - mid 1967 Ali beats any boxer before or since.

Including Mike.

 

Because he wasn`t tested, he learned from each of his title fights, Rooney was telling him how to adapt to Tucker in between rounds etc. He was a work in progress.

 

I don't see any improvement from the Tyson that fought Berbick to the one that fought Holmes, where and in what way do you think he had improved?

Tyson was unlike most HW's before or after him in the way he was physically fully developed at such a young age, that's why when making H2H comparisons you can't pit them at the same age, I mean what other HW champ was fully developed at 20 years old?

 

He might. Ali looked unstoppable unstoppable in that span of time. Like a heavyweight version of Sugar Ray Robinson. Almost.

His level of competition during that period was a lackluster so its hard to say for sure. Even the great ones can be troubled by certain styles like a pressure fighter with an iron will or an awkward guy etc.

 

So this epic test came in the semichallengeing fight against Tucker? You can do better.

There was probably some development after Berbick tbf, but the same for Ali after Liston.

Actually, we have Cooper's word for that Ali developed significantly between the first and second fight. Much stronger for one thing, even though he was actually lighter in the rematch.

 

Tyson was brilliant v Holmes, he slipped and countered his jab the whole fight, complete mis-match.