Prime Muhammad Ali vs Prime Evander Holyfield

You make a good point Tip. Ali became more durable as he went on. Those hooks that Frazier hit him with, the Shavers rights, the Foreman blows; they would have done some real damage to Clay.

Where I might disagree with you is that the knockdowns of Clay that you list happened to a 20, 21 year old who was still growing and maturing. Evander was still an amateur at that stage and may have struggled equally had he been caught with those shots.

But Prime Ali ie 64-67 version benefits from the two versions of him being morphed - a bit like Foreman gets the youthful ferocity blended with mature composure to create a monster that, in reality, never existed. Ali only showed the legendary durability in the 70s so you can't attribute it to the version of the 60s. He may well have had it in his prime but, as you point out, he gave solid evidence that he could be shaken. It depends how far he had matured by the time he hit that prime in terms of taking a shot.

The truth is, we don't know. He was never really tested from 64-67, partly because he was so quick and partly because he was up against quite a weak field. We'd know more about his endurance, relative to Holyfield's, if he had been up against the kind of opposition Evander was in against. Put conversely, if Evander faces Ali's opponents from 65 through to 67, I don't see him visiting the canvas either.

 

Muhammad Ali was down in 1962 against Sonny Banks, and on June 18 1963 against Henry Cooper. But as champion from 1964-1967, he was never down. He bloodied up poor Henry Cooper on May 21 1966 in a title defense, he gave Henry 14 stitches, stopped him in round 6. Ali never lost his title in the ring, he was stripped of it. In my opinion, by 1974 Ali was far past his 1967 form, in 1973, he had his jaw broken by Ken Norton.

 

No they won't. Nobody except you even gives the Holmes fight any consideration. It was nearly as irrelevant as the Tyson-Jones fiasco.

Most on here feel that Ali could have been given rocket fuel and it wouldn't have made an iota of difference. He was totally and utterly done. He'd run his race and the outcome of the Holmes fight would only have any bearing on his historical standing to hysterical one-trick ponies with an agenda to shrill about.

 

Do not pay any mind to him, he has a politically motivated hatred to Muhammad Ali, social isolation is the answer. Holyfield is average at best.

 

I'm not saying you're not knowledgable or clever. I just think your playing games .. that's a troll ..

 

A very hateful troll. Anger management is very helpful, group therapy, PTSD.

 

Steady on, mucker. There wasn't a facet of the sport that Evander was only average at, unlike Muhammad who had an average left hook, right uppercut and below average body work. It's just that Evander didn't have a facet where he was as stand out as Ali was with his footwork and jab and, arguably, right cross.

Lets say I ranked each man on ten aspects of the game and scored them out of ten to create a total. It wouldn't surprise me if Evander scored higher as he has a pretty good mastery of just about everything. But that all counts for nothing against blinding speed and timing. As long as Ali uses those assets in this H2H - which he would - he wins every time.

 

Good point. Ali at his peak did not lose his title on the ring as others had at their peak did, he was stripped of it.

 

Holyfield has good speed at heavyweight but i'm not totally sure i'd call it ATG speed. Certainly no-where near the likes of Ali/Clay and Patterson. Louis' hands were also notably faster as well.

On the contrary Ali's speed goes a long way toward him winning - speed of hand and foot. He's also IMO more than a "little faster". He'd glide around Evander popping him with jabs and sizzling right hands from a distance. Holyfield would have the odd good moment as he's a great fighter and competitor but Ali is obviously a terrible match for him stylistically. Even when Holyfield did catch up with him Ali's immense durability would be sure to keep matters from getting too dramatic. When Holyfield did corner him his sizzling combinations would hold him in good stead regardless.

 

How exactly is Ali a terrible stylistic match up for Holyfield? If anything it’s the other way around, Holyfield has a lot of stylistic similarities with norton, and he arguably be Ali 3 times

 

I think thats true for post layoff Ali. Evander could win very well here.

But for the 66 version? We also saw the Holmes fight, which was way to close for a fighter that age.
I don´t get the discussion about chin. You guys think this is important? I´d say both lack the power for a good chance of stoppage against the other one anyway, which means that this comes down to boxing. You guys srsly believe Holy is going to pressure that "chin on a hovercraft" or Ali going all-in on Evander? Come one.
IF someone accepts that this comes down to 12 or 15 rounds of boxing, how is Evander going to win this?

Ali got a speed, size, reach and jab advantage with power and chin beeing pretty much irrelevant!
Evander was agile on his feet too, but his strength imho was to a) fight as a agressive boxer puncher or b) react to his opponents on the back foot with counter boxing (Bowe 2, Tyson). Therefore, this match either comes down to agressive Evander on the front foot or him boxing with Ali. How in hell is Evander going to win this against a bigger, quicker fighter with more reach and a better jab? Stand there and box with this guy? Chase him like Liston did with less power and less reach? I simply can´t see Holy win this in any scenario, sry.

 

Ali was a kid against Banks and not peak against Cooper. We are looking at prime versions. Ali was also proven beyond doubt to the body. The way he soaked up shots from Foreman and Frazier was insane. Shavers too past prime. Holyfield has superb durability but i'll take Ali.

 

Hey cheers Eddie. Your humor (which goes over the heads of some lol) brightens this place up and i see you've punched out a few serious posts of late, excellent ones at that.

Tell your boy only to memorize the winning ones like the 1st Test! More than a little worried about our batting form and depth at present.

Happy New Year to you too friend - hope you have a fantastic 2021.

 

It's sort of accepted Clay/Ali didn't take any shots from Liston but he actually took a few bombs in there, mostly when he was blinded from memory. I have no doubt at all that 3 years later when about to start exile he could take one helluva punch.

 

I've already explained it.

Norton has little to do with this matchup because he didn't face the prime Ali being talked about. The Ali of Norton and pre-exile Ali are chalk and cheese. The stationary past peak Ali would have had a tough fight with Holyfield, absolutely. The guy is a great fighter and that match would be a good debate. The Ali that could move almost all night and with speed rarely if ever seen in e heavyweight was an entirely different animal.

If you are basing your argument on post exile Ali you are on the wrong page sorry.