Prime Muhammad Ali vs Prime Rocky Marciano

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by johny, Apr 1, 2021.

Who wins

  1. Ali Decision

    53.3%
  2. Ali Knockout

    37.8%
  3. Marciano Decision

    8.9%
  4. Marciano Knockout

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Have you seen pictures of boxers like Bowe, Lewis, etc before they became well known professional boxers? They were not gangly and thin or weak.

    My brother has a class mate in the 12th grade whose 6'5 and at least 260 lbs. Guy hasn't lifted a single wieght in his life yet looks very bulky and as strong as an ox. Zion Williams is another example of a teenage behemoth. Kids are getting bigger on average around the world and PEDs have absolutely nothing to do with it.

    And Bowe would not be "oafish" in any era, he had phenomenal coordination, hand speed, and technique. Drugs are not going to give you good ring IQ, balance, or make a guy with slow hands a fast combination puncher. They are not going to give you a granite chin. That was a very ignorant statement.

    Well this is a silly statement because Willard, Carnera, and other large men were not huffing and puffing and could fight for 20+ rounds without PEDs.

    Spinks, an undefeated fighter, was "shopworn"? Holmes was pretty old himself.

    Holyfield was about a thousand years old and in a very similar condition to the best fighter Rocky faced. Coincidence?

    Klitschko tore his rotator cuff, but you already knew that so why even bring it up?

    Are you going to ignore how Spinks was demolished by Tyson, Toney lost every other major fight at HW, Byrd was splattered by Wladmir and Ike, etc?
    Did I say other styles were invincible? No, I am simply saying that a short slugger has more limitations at HW than other styles which is a fact.

    I'm glad you brought up legacy. Dempsey tore through the division and then quickly fizzled out. Rocky retired at 32. Frazier's career was downhill after beating Ali and he went 1-4 against his best opponents and retired early. Tyson, like Dempsey, did excellent for a couple of years and then quickly began to burn out and lost to the best fighters available more and more frequently.

    In modern days, guys like Brewster and Andy Ruiz were flash in the pan champs who did not stick around for very long.

    There isn't a single short HW slugger who reigned for a very long time the way guys like Louis, Ali, Wladmir, Holmes, etc did. And a lot of it is due to the fact that guys with those dimensions with a very aggressive style have to work twice as hard to enjoy half the success.

    I will apply YOUR logic and ask why Dempsey and Rocky were the only major short sluggers to become champ at HW before the dawn of the modern era/dawn of so called PED abuse?

    There was nothing holding them back.

    What they would do today is irrelevant.

    I can simply look at film and see the vast majority of large heavies did not know how to fight tall, which means they either weren't listening to their trainers or their trainers didn't know how to do it either.

    Which means at some point you need to give credit to modern day trainers and fighters. PEDs cannot teach you how to be a more skilled fighter.
     
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  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    They were unable to sustain fighting tall for as long as is expected from today’s enhanced giants. They got tired. But watching Willard, he fought pretty tall. Carnera at times boxed long. He came in and mauled too, but that’s all part of it. And it’s hard to look so coordinated against a faster guy sixty pounds lighter unless the shorter guy is also carrying extra weight and fighting at the giants kind of pace. A trainer in the 1920s developed some very skilful champions in lighter divisions. Why do you think it was less possible for bigger men? Was it because the size of them represented fatigue limitations?

    I give a lot of credit to modern trainers. After all they have had to devise ways to get something out of these Oafs that never used to make it as fighters. Fight tall, fight in spurts, limit the exertion, hold etc.. it’s all enhanced by what is available because they can get more out of them now. Physically the biggest men are a lot less limited as fighters than they were before and that’s directly to do with changes in what can be achieved in their training programmes.

    They were under 200lb which was probably the same as all of the champions apart from Baer, Willard and Carnera until Sonny and Ali came along in the 1960s. That’s sixty years worth of champions of comparable size. Marciano was simply the shortest one of them. He fitted in to his era in the way Tyson as a short fighter fit into his era. Dempsey was the same height as Joe Louis, Tunney, Max and Max Schmeling. By definition Dempsey was not a short slugger.

    Yes Dempsey was a champion for seven years. As a retired fighter in the 1930s he fought hundreds of exhibitions where he was still knocking men out.He lived to a ripe old age. Remarkable really.

    I agree all fighters have their limitations. But Tyson was good for a lot of years overall.

    I agree it is a more demanding style. However PEDs helped Evander give away size for year after year.

    And that’s why they represented exceptions rather than the start of a trend.

    Put that guy on a 1950s boxing training programme using the diet and nutrition of the day and to function as a fighter he will become rather gangly. Or he will train less and fight big giving him the limitations of the early oafs in boxing...if he can fight.

    They are more obese too. But I don’t know what that has to do with boxing other than obese fighters can now perform as well as Andy Ruiz without getting so tired.

    The performance is enhanced though. Yes the fighter has to be able to do these things in the first place but the PED enables them to do it longer. There is evidence that PED improves recovery.It allows them to react and position themselves quicker and stronger etc. It enhances everything. No loss of speed for longer. Maintain weight without losing strength. Less fatigue. It’s a game changer for a big man who used to get sloppy. Or a little guy who wants to get bigger.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    No I don’t believe Modern day giants need PEDs to beat lightheavyweight sized fighters because Without PEDs Carnera beat Tommy Laughran.

    But I am saying modern day giants would have to adapt in fantasy matchups to the traditional methods and diets of the older times and experience the weight weakening physical limitations that hampered the vast majority of giant sized men. Which prevented them from being a relevant force to the heavyweight division for 100 years.

    I can’t imagine how you can’t accept this.

    A gangly 204 version of Lennox Lewis raised on the nutrition and diet of Billy Conns era would have developed whilst afflicted with the same physical limitations that 6’5” 204lb heavyweights of that time had. Lewis always had the makings of a great fighter so he could still beat Billy Conn. but the gulf won’t be as extreme as you imagine it is. Billy’s head won’t fall off if it didn’t fall off with Joe Louis hitting it.
    Lewis could in theory exist as Willard did but unquestionably he might also be afflicted with the same physical limitations that Willard and the men as big as him had given the limitations of training and diet of the day.

    of course that is not happening. An average Joe needs not just to learn to fight he needs to be a fighter in the first place. This is the credit you won’t give Carnera and Willard. Your saying they were just big. That they couldn’t fight. They became world champions!

    Today we can see training on juice would improve Carnera and Willard more aesthetically. They could train on PEDs without weight weakening themselves. With more output. the Enhanced energy required to absorb and maintain technique would improve them immeasurably. Their anticipation and reaction levels more focused. it doesn’t take away what they could already do. It enhances it. They develop while being enhanced. The jabs they are shown remain sharper for longer. The footwork steps they practice can be repeated faster and faster until they become fluid.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  4. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Carnera was not "tired" in round 1 against Max Baer when he started the fight off with both hands down and his chin in the air allowing Max to get inside over and over.

    Stop trying to convince people of things when they can simply watch the film.

    No idea why the old school trainers couldn't figure out how to make old giants fight properly. Possibly because they assumed that since they were such big men all you had to do is teach them the basics and make sure they didn't gas early and they'd be able to overwhelm the smaller opponents. That, and the eras weren't that great. Those are two very simple and logical explanations.

    PEDs do not suddenly make a 6'5+ guy an ATG without having ATG strategy. Boxing got better and the coaches developed better method. To imply nothing in boxing changed other than drugs is both incorrect and illogical.

    Louis, Tunney, Schmeling, etc were not come forward aggressive sluggers.

    Not sure why I have to clarify everything anytime you respond.

    Louis was a boxer puncher, Tunney was a mover, Schmeling a technician. Dempsey and Marciano could only fight coming forward and threw lots of hooks and power punches on the front foot. Again, you did not see very many succesful heavies in the old days that had that style and who were on the smaller side--especially the size of Rocky. There was nothing holding back Tua/Tyson/Frazier type of men back then if your go to excuse is that everyone is on PEDs in the modern days.

    Dempsey was an inactive champion for several years. He took 2 years off between Carpentier and Gibbons. 3 years between Firpo and Tunney, and then another year before he rematched Tunney.

    Stop being disingenuous. Dempsey was not an "active" champion constantly defending his title for 7 years. Knocking out guys in exhibitions means nothing.

    I think it was just a matter of time. Even if Tyson was 100% focused and didn't fire Rooney, the focused Buster Douglas who showed up in Tokyo would still be a very formidable opponent. Even if he got past him, what are the odds Tyson remains focused and his body does not start breaking down had he continued at his usual pace taking on guys like Ruddock, Foreman, Holyfield, Lewis, etc which was the original plan? I highly doubt he goes undefeated against that string of opponents had he not gone to jail. The division was getting bigger and bigger and much more competitive. Bear in mind his 2 best opponents were an old inactive Holmes and a blown up light heavy Spinks. The division was average at best and Tyson was very good at decimating average opponents.

    WTF does holyfield have to do with anything? He was neither short, nor a pure slugger. He was one of the most well rounded champions in history. He had a great jab and could use lateral movement, fight off the back foot, counter, box, throw combinations at any range, etc. And he had one of the best ring IQ's in history.

    The only problem with this statement is that aside from C level tough guys who thought they could just show up and knock people out, every big man over 6'3 220+ back then had the stamina to go the distance.

    Buddy Baer, Fulton, Abe Simon, etc.

    Not to mention all the basketball and football players who had plenty of stamina. Why are you making things up to suit your agenda?

    This is stupid as hell.

    You clearly do not know jack about how training affects muscle.

    If a teenager with a naturally large frame with broad shoulders, thick thighs, biceps, etc does any sort of sport or activity involving explosive strength training they are not going to suddenly become weak and skinny. You do not lose muscle while doing physical activity, that is something you learn in junior high school for crying out loud. You might lose fat or become leaner, but if you have a bulky frame and your parents have a bulky frame, you will not suddenly look like a scrawny bony gymnast from doing old school boxing training.

    You are talking out of your ass.

    Jim Jefferies was not on PEDs and did not lift weights yet was build like a spartan soldier doing old school training and weighed 220+. I don't even need to elaborate.

    And there are also plenty who are built like fit grown men while in their late teens.

    When my brother was 17 he was 6'1 and 210 lbs of rock solid muscle. He is 5-0 as an amateur boxer before the pandemic started. Doesn't take PEDs or do a ton of weight lifting.

    You seem very out of touch and you need to get out more and do some actual research. I've seen you repeat a lot of the same BS in other threads too.

    Still waiting on your EVIDENCE that Lewis, Bowe, etc were all juicing.

    Glad you're FINALLY acknowledging that drugs are not going to give you a better ring IQ and technique. We are making progress.
     
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  5. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I don't accept it because guys like Jefferies and Foreman were still dominant physical power houses even with old school training methods. Carnera and Willard too. No one ever described them as "weak", they would often gush at their strength and shower them with praise.

    No idea why you're under the impression Bowe or Lewis would suddenly be weak pushovers without lifting weights. A 6'5 220+ man is still usually going to be way stronger than a 5'11 195 pound guy if they're both in shape with or without PEDs.

    Lewis wouldn't be a gangly 204 lbs tho, and he grew up in Jamaica with a totally different diet from Billy Conn so this is just more of you talking out of your ass.

    What physical limitations? Old school training did not prevent Willard and Carnera from being physical powerhouses nor did it leave them with poor cardio and end endurance so wtf are you talking about?

    Limitations of diet? A lot of athletes back then ate whatever they felt like eating and often had terrible diets. I can't imagine Lennox and especially Bowe of all people starving themselves and following strict diets. :lol:

    They could fight other boxers who lacked skill and were anywhere from 30-70 lbs lighter. A lot of men back then weren't as skilled as big men today.

    Nowhere did I say Carnera and Willard literally had zero skill.

    Now if you disagree and start making idiotic Reznik arguments that Carnera is just as skilled as Bowe/Lewis/Wladmir just spare me the trouble and stop responding because I will not bother.

    Carnera weighed as much as 260 lbs. WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THE IDEA HE WAS WEIGHT WEAKENING HIMSELF?

    And of course if the old school giants took peds they'd have a higher energy output, that's common sense. But without a modern trainer they'd still be B level at best if they fought the way they did back then. The old school giants got demolished by Dempsey and Louis and the modern ones effortlessly neutralize the dempsey/louis sized boxers despite the fact smaller heavies ALSO have access to peds. Therefore the simplest explanation is that the larger heavies are better boxers than the old ones.

    This is something you are refusing to accept even though we can see on film how sloppy the old school boxers look.
     
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  6. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Who knows. It's hard enough to guess how fighters actually facing each other will fare.

    I saw Quarry being brought up, and if he and Ali never had met I bet that he'd be thought to provide a fairly good challenge. As it was, Ali just couldn't miss him with his punches. Ali just seemed to know what Quarry would do before he did himself. And Norton had something like that on Ali.

    Rocky had the kind of awkward style I think would trouble Ali. He didn't bring the fast pressure and head movement of Frazier, but something of Norton's and Bonavena's awkwardness.

    I think this would be a really interesting fight.
     
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  7. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    @Glass City Cobra You're wasting your time. This post says it all about Chok.

     
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  8. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He's like a black hole. Every time you respond it's almost impossible to escape.

    He claims Lennox Lewis and Bowe would be skinny with gangly arms and thin necks if they were born a few decades earlier and did old school training. Because apparently if a large stocky 200+ pound man does boxing training they will become skinny and frail.

    While simultaneously ignoring all the 200+ pound behemoths like Willard, Carnera, Simon, etc. Because apparently only white boxers can carry a lot of muscle mass and be able to go the distance without PEDs.

    I don't even think he was trying to sound ignorant or racist but that is so incredibly illogical and unscientific it doesn't warrant a response.
     
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  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I am glad we can start on a positive note. Yes. I always have acknowledged drugs don’t give you ring IQ. When I boxed this was clearly apparent.

    of course it won’t but being 6’1” is shorter than the limited behemoths in question.

    I know that giant boxers, big guys, were sent on the same runs and gym circuits that smaller fighters did even when I was boxing and today that would be considered detrimental. But back then big giant guys were compeating with faster men who were lighter and more skilled than they could be so they had to keep up.

    There is a reason why you don’t see 260lb marathon runners.

    But thanks to modern advances you do see 260lb guys going 12 rounds against other 260lb guys with big wobbly bodies.

    of course not. But if they are running three times a week and doing hard cardiovascular circuits in the gym, no weight training, and eating boiled vegetables, lean chicken and strong tea (without milk) like the old timers did they won’t look like Andy Ruiz either.

    who is being naive here?

    It’s not possible that highly invested prospects like Primo Carnera...who had the best of everything just had a guy telling them “just go out there and overwhelm him, you are a big guy”.

    really?
    when did I say only white guys can carry muscle mass? That is something you have said. I have only addressed the men you brought up. Take that back.

    I don’t understand? you want to escape from logical explanations? I have considered then addressed all your points.

    quite clearly I have not been ignorant or racist or illogical or unscientific. I have explained myself well. Please elaborate on these areas where I have been ignorant and racist.

    just say you disagree. You can’t make accusations like this.
     
  10. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think Marciano gives him his hardest fight...these are Ali’s words. He horsed around a him in the ring as an old man he would know better then us. That being said I pick Ali by points.
     
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  11. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I like Ali by either a wide decision or a late stoppage - perhaps on cuts. While Rocky Marciano was among the toughest of world champions who unduly takes a beating in a lot of modern day boxing conversations, I think he would be absorbing too many shots from the taller, faster, busier and more skilled Muhammad Ali.
     
  12. Balder

    Balder Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Rocky is getting underrated in this thread.


    I see Ali getting on his bike and boxing, he will try to keep Rocky off him with his jab and speed, Rocky is a little slower of foot, but has a better defense and chin than Frazier.


    I see Rocky being beat on points early, but Ali will be surprised at his endurance. Rocky starts to land and Ali will feel those shots. But he we also be enraged that Rocky could even do that to him, and also make him miss.


    Ali will start to stand flat footed and try to knock Rocky out around the 6th round. Rocky will have drawn him into a inside war. Ali will make him look clumsy, even knocking the Rock down, but he will be expending his energy with those flashing combinations and then by rough housing Rocky inside. In the meantime, Rocky is throwing... and throwing ...and throwing.... This will turn into a war of attrition and Rocky is just a little better at it than Ali . Ali goes to the ropes and waves Marciano in and then tries to tire him out. It does not work like it did with Foreman.


    Rocky is a nonstop motor, with insane power. He starts to land more as Ali is on the ropes. Rocky breaks his jaw by round 9, and Ali has no choice but to get on his bike after that, but he cannot last the whole round dancing like a butterfly. Those earlier shots have sapped Ali a little, and he has to go back to the ropes by mid round, all the while hitting the Rock with jabs as he comes in and then covering up.


    Meanwhile, Rocky is still throwing haymakers and getting stronger.


    This goes to the cards. Rocky wins it as he pulls away in the championship rounds. The only way Ali wins this is by boxing from the get go, and not being drawn into a war. But that is not who Ali is.


    Rocky SD
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
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  13. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yeah I don't think he's racist but I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out he is. Would explain his vendetta against Liston, Foreman, Williams, etc.
     
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  14. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Duh.

    Point being people can pack on 210+ lbs of solid muscle without lifting weights like Arnold, pumping their body full of PEDs, or being obese.

    And here's another fact that you'd know if you knew anything at all about muscle mass and weight: taller people can put on muscle faster than shorter people. Especially if they are mesomorphs/endomorphs.

    boxing and marathon running are totally different things.

    260 pound guys EXISTED IN THE OLD SCHOOL BOXING ERA. THEY WERE NOT GASPING FOR AIR AFTER 5 ROUNDS. What part of this do you not understand???

    Well, again, duh.

    Did prime versions of Bowe and Lewis or Wladmir look like Andy Ruiz? All super heavies look like sloppy sumo wrestlers?

    I can't tell if you're ignorant or making ignorant statements on purpose and this is why people get tired of responding to you, not because you are making profound statements. Running 3x a weak and not lifting weights will not make you skinny with gangly arms and a thin neck. Don't back peddle now or try to take it back, you kept insisting modern super heavies would be scrawny and lanky if they did old school training AND YET THERE ARE MUSCULAR 230+ SUPER HEAVIES WHO DID OLD SCHOOL TRAINING.

    You are if you think old school super heavies were being trained to their full potential.

    Given that it happens even today, no, I wouldn't be remotely shocked if it took a while for people to actually get serious training and schooling for Carnera. You still get the occasional tall tough guy or muscle who enters the gym thinking he's hot stuff because he beat up some guys in high school or in an alley.

    Either that or he wasn't listening.

    All I have to do is LOOK at the film to see how sloppy and awkward he is. Yet other old school boxers like Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, even Jefferies do not look as awkward as he does. Take your pic. Either the old school trainers didn't know how to help those guys maximize all their tools and fight tall, the old school giants sucked, or they simply didn't listen to their trainers. You can't keep falling back on "they'd be better with PEDs" because you just admitted PEDs don't give you better ring IQ, defense, timing, accuracy, etc.

    You did not say that in those words but I have pointed out about 6 or 7x now that there were MULTIPLE old school muscular heavies who were over 230+ lbs that did not gas out and could go the distance and were not skinny or gangly so WHY would Bowe or Lewis or Wladmir suddenly become lanky bean poles just because they aren't lifting weights? That's not how biology works lol.

    Really not hard at all for a tall guy to be muscular and stocky without lifting weights even if he's doing tons of cardio and hitting the heavy bag.

    None of your arguments about modern super heavies being scrawny and weak if they did old school training have been logical or scientific.

    There is no "agree to disagree" when someone is being inconsistent, unscientific, and illogical.

    And I've asked you about 5x now to provide evidence Wladmir, Vitali, Bowe, or Lewis were on PED's. Stop ducking.
     
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  15. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You have never watched Ali fight if you think he's going to let a power puncher goad him into trading blows and having a war in ring center and suddenly stop dancing for no reason.
     
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