Prime Muhammad Ali was hittable

He got hit a lot, people who saw it and still see it will deny it but he ate left hooks like pop corn and guys like Bonavena, Chuvalo, Foster and Norton hit him a bunch.., yes it was after his mythical prime, but his mythical prime consisted of guys very easy to look like boxing Christ against… he honestly became a better fighter in the 70s, in the 60s I forecast that he’d have eventually got caught like he did against Cooper and almost stopped… by a 185-190lber…

 

Everybody is hittable. We have the same rubbish going on with Usyk, now: "he can be hit!"

 

CompuBox is literally people watching old video counting punches and deciding which punches didn't land, which punches landed, and how hard they were.

 

Well take a gander at some factors for Marciano, weight shaded off to the right, low, the right hand couldn’t be put over his shoulder and he often rolled it or got them reaching with it and there jab (subtle retraction in the weight) take a look at the Louis fight and how he was landing right hands off of jabs etc, RM’s foot was almost always by there lead, this puts you out of range from the hook and creates miles between you and there right hand, it also means that folks have to punch across themselves with the right hand… which is a mistake, with a lot of this going on all he had to think about at a reset was the jab, similar style as Schemling vs Louis, when you eliminate options like this you can become really good at getting inside like Marciano was and that’s part of what made him hard to hit… it’d take too long to explain, look at where he puts his head and think about what can hit him there, then take into account what he’s doing with his hand in each position, he was really good at smothering your shots and landing. Being inside is the eye of the storm… for guys who can’t punch with there hips they’re prey animals, Marciano would throw wild shots but up close those were compact with his weight behind them.

 

Yeah its why I've never been big on his H2H ranking he relied a lot more on his toughness and athleticism to win fights then people realize and of course when both of those started to decline he started looking worse and worse.

 

Ali liked to put on a show and sometimes the dancing and leaning wasn’t always so practical.

That’s why I like Ali’s performance in the first Liston fight so much. More conventional than usual, very practically applied and incredibly slippery.

Perhaps I’m drawing too long a bow but I thought the successes of Folley’s no nonsense classic boxing style hinted at greater success than most people calculate for a fighter like Joe Louis.

Folley was also good cutting the ring and not becoming mesmerised and chasing Ali via the far more fleeted footed Muhammad’s own exact path - rather, Folley conserved his energy, holding his position while visually tracking the dancing Ali before advancing and launching when the shortest distance between he and Ali was on offer - times when Ali himself also simply to close the distance to try and land his own punches.

Folley idolised and tried to emulate the style of Louis I believe, but of course Louis was so much better in every department, speed, power, technical executions, etc.

 

Ali never looked "bad" until the Young fight. He was 50-2 at that time and had been boxing for 22 years by then. He was also woefully out of shape.

 

This again?

Several of Rocky's opponents, his own trainer and family members, and Rocky himself all said he could be pretty crude and lacked in defense. People have eyes. He was not some sort of elusive wizard. Yes he could sometimes be evasive with his dip and crouch, but he was a slugger through and through. His offense was his defense most of the time and he could be very off balance and wild.

Most boxers couldn't capitalize on Rocky's mistakes with counters because they lacked the modern sweet science, were too scared to open up, or they sucked. He also faced very, very few prime young opponents. Larry Holmes said it best: "I was an old man fighting young men, Rocky was a young man fighting old men".

 

Reading through this thread, you'd think Ali was a fraud with 12 losses who got dropped or nailed repeatedly in every fight and needed gift decisions against mediocre opponents.

This is what happens when the pendulum is swung too far in the other direction. It's sometimes tempting to bash and downplay an elite athlete because they're held to a higher standard.

 

Yeah he was a bum. Got hit anytime his opponent wanted to hit him.

We're talking about Tye Fields, correct?

 

You can acknowledge his resume and accomplishments (I consider him the greatest heavyweight) while also pointing out his technical flaws (of which he had many.) Considering how hard the people in this forums stan him I think its fair to point out he wasn't perfect and had many flaws as a boxer.

 

He was 50-2 when he looked bad against Young and had more milage than a 1991 Civic, and even in those two losses against fellow IBHOF members the cards were close. If he retired after Coopman at 49-2 his detractors would have nothing to talk about but smelling salts and a three second respite.

 

But that's the thing, he COULD afford to be clipped given his opponent's mediocore power. If he was in the ring with someone like Louis, he'd obviously be a lot more "switched on" and be more defensively responsible.

 

Literally no one was calling him perfect or flawless or claiming he'd effortlessly dominate any opponent h2h winning wide lopsided UD's.

Plenty of people are aware of his weaknesses to left hooks, him getting caught while showboating, lack of defensive fundamentals, and borderline non-existent body punching. Nobody is treading new water here. The writers and coaches of the time had plenty to say about the problems with his style. Futch publicly explained how he helped Norton exploit said weaknesses.

And yet, despite these technical flaws, his lack of raw punching power, losing 3 years of his prime, hand injuries, and developing Parkinson's, he still dominated 2 decades and became a 3x champion against an exhaustive list of notable contenders and elite hall of famers. No ones resume comes close aside from the great Joe Louis. Ali stuck to his guns making his style work for him against some of the very same opponents who beat him, which is a lot more than I can say for other ATGs.

 

Compubox had Liston connecting at least four times against Ali in their rematch, and I just don't see anything landing aside from a single right land to the body. Maybe you could count the jab to the chest that Ali countered over, but I don't think the punch could really be considered "effective". So, I don't think Compubox is necessarily an accurate guage of defensive effectiveness when it comes to Ali. His style was predicated on taking the power off a lot of shots.

Plus, there are some fights, like the Liston rematch, where I would flat out disagree with the numbers provided based on what I saw.