Prime Muhammed Ali vs Prime Jim jeffries

Don't accuse me of being selective I'll bet you $500 I can back up every thing I say and with primary sourced quotes.
Hype Igoe ,who was ringside stated Jeffries took a worse beating than Willard did against Dempsey!
"He seemed faster and stronger than when I met him before and he reached my head much oftener,but I always had my jaw covered and I knew he could not hit me hard enough on the body to put me out.
I am so much bigger and heavier than he is ,I knew I would wear him out and win in the end".Jeffries

"Well I won,but I'll certainly have to give it to Fitz for being the best old man in the world.He certainly gave me the hardest run for eight rounds that I have had in my career.Gee,but I look pretty well cut up.Say fellows does it add to my beauty?" Jim Jeffries

"Well I won as I knew I would,but I must admit that the victory brought with it some disagreeable features in the shape of a broken nose,a battered eye and other bruises too numerous to mention." Jeffries interviewed by the Evening Post.
"Fitzsimmons is without doubt the greatest man in the ring outside of myself.I had no idea that any man could stand the blows I landed on the body without going down and out before he did.I struck him often with full force ,but he took the gruel and kept coming at me by shooting his left and right at my nose and eye.The blood bothered me for a time,but I eventually got used to it,and went right in and took his punishment ,knowing my ability to withstand his assaults,and fully conscious that in time he would have to wild under his punches."Jim Jeffries

So Jeffries won because he was prepared to take all Fitz's punches and gradually wear down the older lighter man.
Where is the improvement here?
" Jeffries took a terrible mauling and his face was beaten almost to a pulp,Fitz hit him often especially with the left
.Bob would feint him into a knot and then stab him with a left jab and dance away.
After jabbing him to pieces in the 5th round,Bob used his right more,and some of the blows he landed onjeff's jaw3 with that useful member appeared hard enough to fell an ox."
"It was only his weight and strength,stamina,and capacity of taking punishment that won for him.True the blow ,a left hook which landed directly under the solar plexus,had everything to do with his victory,but,had he not been made of cast iron,he could never have withstood the blows that Fitz landed on him throughout the fight."
George Siler!!!
Fitz was cool, calm, fresh and never fought better,.He was light on his feet and faultless of his judgement of distance
He out boxed and outpointed Jeffries who seemed unable to escape his cutting blows.
Jeffries nose was bloodied in the first ,his right eye cut in the third, and both eyes cut in the sixth.He was a sight bleeding profusely,covered in blood.His crouching attitude did not save him from punishment and at times he abandoned it.Fitz landed hard and often.Conversely Jeffries judgement was off falling short with most blows,and he was made to look clumsy and inexpert..Fitzsimmons did not appear distressed by his own exertions.He held the points lead throughout ,having the best of the fight until the knockout".W.W Naughton The Examiner.

"Fitzsimmons for7 rounds fought as he had never fought before,cleverly and scientifically."
"He had the champion cut, bleeding ,and confused.Jeff's defence seemed off and he had difficulties landing ".
The National Police Gazette.

"Although Jeffries earned the victory,the honor and glory of the battle rest with the vanquished.
For 7 rounds,Fitz made a pitiable spectacle,of Jeffries landing at will,cutting his face to ribbons"
The Call.

"Jeffries received the hardest punishment of his career in a wonderful furious fight in which Fitzsimmons showed remarkable cleverness.Bob had the clear points lead from beginning to end."The Chronicle.
"Every tooth in my head was loose.For two days after the fight I couldn't move my jaw and I thought it was surely broken .One of my ears was in bad shape " Jim Jeffries MY Life And Battles.

Summing it up Fitz beat the sh*t out of him and it was only Jeffries size youth and toughness that enabled him to prevail.

Show me where he had improved since he fought Corbett 2 years before?

Want more, let me know, there are plenty of others confirming my statements.

Want to take that bet?

 

I am not disputing that Jeffries took a lot of punishment, but you are failing to acknowledge a lot of other things that happened.

Fitzsimmons completely changed his tactics from the previous fight, and played jab and run.

This forced Jeffries to go after him, instead of fighting defensively as he did in the first fight, and meant that he had to take punishment to implement his fight plan.

Jeffries implemented an effective body attack, which broke Fitzsimmons down, relatively quickly for a fighter who was playing jab and run.

There are also legitimate questions about what was under Fitzsimmons gloves.

 

No, no, and no.Fitz beat the p*ss out of him until his hands went on him, he had re- injured one of them sparring with Hank Griffin a few days earlier. Fitz was nearly 40 years old, shouldn't a 12 years younger man be able to dominate such an older much smaller man? Especially one coming out of 2 years retirement!
There are no reasons to question Fitz wraps, Jeffries carefully examined them in the ring before the men gloved up.

You are the biggest excuse maker for Jeffries on this forum.

Stop digging that hole!You are beat!

 

You keep saying this, but it isn't exactly the truth is it.

Fitzsimmons also got the **** beaten out of him, which is why he was stopped relatively quickly.

Jeffries injuries were more visible, because Fitzsimmons targeted the face, and Jeffries primarily worked the body.

The bottom line is that Fitzsimmons got worn down by a sustained body attack, and he was knocked out.

We don't know exactly what role his hand injuries played in this.

Some sources even suggest that Jeffries allowed Fitzsimmons to wear some sort of casts over his hands to protect them.

Jeffries became paranoid about opponents hand wraps after the fight.

 

He seems to have improved somewhat between the second Fitzsimmons fight and the second Corbett fight incidentally.

"I will either defeat Jeffries or make him into the greatest fighter the world has ever seen".

Bob Fitzsimmons

"Jeffries showed wonderful improvement, He fought better and faster than when he fought Bob Fitzsimmons in this city".

"He lost none of his overpowering strength by taking on the newly acquired cleverness and every blow told".

Ed Graney

"Before last nights encounter I thought that a clever strong man could beat him, but when he stepped into the ring and showed as much science as Corbett, I was forced to take my hat off to him".

Tommy Ryan

"In the year since he beat Bob Fitzsimmons down and out, he has added wonderful science to his his enormous bulk and unbeatable strength. He could have acquired this knowledge only one way, from Bob Fitzsimmons, with who he toured the country and boxed almost nightly".

National Police Gazette

"Jeffries surprised me. I was certain that he was not that quick when he fought Fitzsimmons. His footwork has improved, and his hitting is cleaner. He did not employ the crouch as he did in our previous contest. He is as strong as he ever was, much cleverer, and in the ring tonight his speed was a revelation. It was my ill fortune to meet him at his best, and I have paid the penalty".

Jim Corbett

I think that basically Jeffries continued to improve right up to the Munro fight, and that it is this version that you would field to fight Ali, if it is a prime for prime fight.

 

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Ali, way too fast and skilled for Jeffries, Jeff was tough but hopefully the ref stops this one. Ali tko 10, Jeffries a bloody mess.

 

No, no, and no! Fitz was unmarked after the fight except for a slight cut on one ear!
How did he improve between the 2nd Fitz fight and the 2nd Corbett fight ? He fought no one in between!
You think Jeffries doing better against a totally washed up Corbett in their 2nd fight is proof of improvement? Or was it when he fought the absolutely useless Munroe who was described as not knowing how to even punch correctly?
Some sources say f*ck all about Fitz wearing casts over his hands ,Jeffries carefully examined his handwraps in the ring it is well documented .

You are a shameless apologist for every fight in which Jeffries had struggles.
We know Fitzsimmons had bad hands going into the fight because it was mentioned in the contemporary papers, want me to post them?
We also know because it is in two books, Pollack's one on Jeffries and Odd's one on Fitzsimmons.
The bottom line is in the 8th round Fitz walked towards Jeffries said something to him and dropped his hands,Jeffries then landed a left hook to the stomach which finished Fitz.Jeffries hadn't landed a great deal at all up to that point.
For once in you life admit the truth.

Jeffries got badly beaten up ,and it was his size, strength, youth,durability and courage which carried the day for him, not any improvement in technique on his part.

Read the newspapers round by rounds for Christ Sake!
Jeffries was described as a novice in Fitz's hands!
Jesus Wept, I now understand how there can be people still believing the earth is flat!!!

 

Guys like Chuvalo and Bonavena gave Ali challenges so I"m sure Jeffries would have done the same .. Of course you have to favor Ali with his own terrific size, chin and strength to go with his speed and stamina by a decision but I don't see it as if he was fighting a Ron Strander or how many would have us believe.

 

How would Jeffries have looked against Bonavena if he had just 4 rounds of boxing in the previous 3 and a half years? Jeffries was retired at the age Ali came back to boxing. How many rounds did Chuvalo win against Ali?
Score cards for their two fights
1st fight . 73-65,74-63,74-62.
2nd fight.59-51,60-46,58,61.

 

At this point I need to say a bit about these eras.

Sullivan fought in an era where boxing was illegal, and where gloved fights, including title fights, were billed as exhibitions. Some historians think that Sullivan had more title defenses in gloved contests than Joe Louis did.

By Jeffries era fights were almost invariably billed as fights, and record keeping was much more thorough. Even so, there is evidence that we do not have Jeffries entire professional record.

Now Corbett inhabits a grey area between these eras. He emerged as a contender in the last years of Sullivans reign, while boxing was still illegal in most states, and he finished his career in Jeffries era.

That is why we cannot judge exactly how much ring experience Corbett had.

What we could say without fear of contradiction however, is that he was the best defensive fighter of his time.

 

Make our bet $5000 !!

 

This was because Jeffries had been pounding his body for eight rounds, as the ringside reports make clear.

I am not saying that Jeffries had improved because he did better against Corbett second time round.

I am saying that he had improved because observers, including Corbett himself, very specifically said that his technique had improved.

Even if Corbett was as bad as you say, he would be able to judge whether Jeffries technique had improved.

It is not entirely clear what happened with the hand wraps, but there is some evidence that Fitzsimmons was allowed some highly unusual terms on this.

We just seem to be going round in circles with this.

You just seem to quote a number of sources that support your viewpoint, and ignore anything that I post that contradicts it.

I don't know what else I can really do!

 

We don't know how he'd look ...maybe terrific like Leonard did vs Hagler. What we do know is that Bonavena gave Ali living hell. We also know that even thought Ali won big on points against Chuvalo both times he knew he was n grueling fights .. there is very little reason to believe that Jeffries, who was bigger than both, likely faster and harder punching when his hands help up, would not have done as least as well ..

 

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