Prime Razor Ruddock vs Prime Joe Louis

You quickly change your narrative once it doesn't suit you. Chisora is even worse than Carnera.

 

Lol change my narrative? How ? Im going on the pretense that heavyweight boxing and boxing in general has evolved since that time. It clearly has.

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From these clips alone its obvious Chisora is more technically sound that Carnera. In addition Carnera clearly had a significant size advantage against almost if not everyone. Fighting against mostly 190 pounders and your occasional 205-210 pounder. Nowadays he'd be a normal heavyweight and that size and weight advantage wouldn't be that much if at all

 

Vitali Klitschko doesn’t look like a modern skilled SHW.

 

He did when he fought lennox lewis. He's 6'7, almsot 250, awkward but knows how to time and has great power and an iron chin. You have to take into account heavyweights are larger now and more powrful. There's a reason weight divisions exist. When a 200 pounder and a 240 pounder have are on a similar level of skill the larger fighter is highly likely to win in a dominant fashion. and you can see the skill and talent when he also fought corrie sanders.

 

Calling Vitali's power great is laughable.

The ****er threw 700 punches at a shot Briggs and couldn't put him away. Same with Chisora, who was absolutely iced by the incredibly mediocre Dillian Whyte.

His KO% comes from an accumulation of punches, size and poor opposition.

If he was a great puncher, he'd have more KOs that were impressive. He doesn't, because he isn't.

 

It always give me a good chuckle when I see people say he would dispatch Frazier the same way as Foreman.

 

His narrative is that a tall heavy boxer must hit hard but he didn't address when I pointed out guys like Willard, Wach, Valuev, Fury, etc having mediocre power.

Vitali landed at will on the stationary zero head movement Arreola all night and couldn't drop him. Same thing with the sloppy zero defense obese Samuel Peter. Couldn't drop light heavyweight Byrd or a wheezing out of shape 38 year old Lewis. The KO% is quite deceptive as he rarely actually knocked a ranked guy down, let alone having them stay down for the 10 count.

 

Is it that clear? Chisora is nothing but a toughman with nothing more than basic skills.

Carnera faced a lot of giants in his era and he was better than all of them.

Who is as big as him? Outside of Fury (who's also smaller in terms of natural size), everyone else is smaller than Carnera.

 

He absolutely didn't, it was as sloppy fight as it gets at that level.

 

It was the super heavyweight version of Foreman vs Lyle in terms of sloppyness. That was a pretty bad example.

 

Nothing but a tough man with basic skills ? Well he looks far more coordinated than Carnera so sure.

Name the skilled giants he faced i want to hear their physical dimensions.
Look at Carneras highlights. He wasn't as skilled as you think.

Lol what ?? Fury is naturally larger. Primo might weigh a little more but thats not size that is mass. Andy Ruiz is not bigger than Anthony Joshua despite weighing more, he is more massive. His height of 6'6 is normal in the current division and heavyweights nowadays weight 230-260. The weight advantage primo brings is not significant whatsoever compared to when it was when heavyweight used to be tiny. He looked so impressive because his usual opponent was sub 200lb.

Carnera is what happens when you make a extremely par heavyweight fight a buch of light heavyweights and cruiserweights. And maybe your occasional small heavyweight

 

Assumptions. Nobody is claiming bullcrap absolutes that taller fighters hit harder. What i am claiming is on average, size matters to an extent. Why do you think Foreman, Lyle and Cooney punched so hard for their era ? They were big heavyweights at that time. Size and weight don't always matter of course but it does to an extent. 1 of the few reasons why weight classes exist. Fury doesn't punch hard because he cant turn his shots over. And the other ones dont posses significant power. I agree that size doesn't always matter. Marciano probably hits far harder than Wach, Valuev, Fury etc. But why do you think Carnera had so many knockouts ?

You realize that broken face bones Shannon Briggs claimed Vitali actually hit harder than the Foreman he fought ? Foreman also went the distance with briggs. Foreman was clearly old and hit harder in his prime but power is the last thing to go and Foreman still hit like a truck in the 90s. What fighter above 225 has Foreman put down other than shaky mandible Cooney.

Vitali has heavy hands, not like prime Foreman or prime Wladimir but still heavy handed. Shavers couldn't floor an ancient Ali but 180 Henry Cooper did, despite the fact everyone who fought Foreman and Shavers claimed shavers hit harder. There are lots of variables in knockdowns and knockouts than just power

 

It looked sloppy because Vitali is an awkward Unorthodox fighter and it didn't mix well with Lewis's Style. Similar to how Tyson Fury looks sloppy in a LOT of his fights but is actually ouclassing his opponents. Klitschko didn't outclass Lewis because.. its Lewis but he gave him a hard fight. Lewis was over the hill but at that point he was still elite level.

WATCH the fight. Vitali was very effective at using his awkwardness and doubling up on his jab. He is very skilled. FAR better than Carnera.

 

Yes there are several variable when it comes to knockdowns.

-In the case of Briggs vs Foreman, Briggs was in his prime and used lateral movement and circled away from Foreman which took some of the sting off the punches. Foreman was not very aggressive in that fight and mostly used his jab to score points, he wasn't going for the knockout.

-Against Vitali, Briggs was old as hell as 38 and basically a shot fighter. He stood right in front of Vitali with leaky defense and Vitali landed at will with bad intentions. And yet Vitali couldn't knock him down. That says a lot.

Vitali threw mostly straight arm punches and got his stoppages through sheer volume and heavy handedness. He doesn't have a highlight reel of knockouts in the first 3 rounds. Foreman does. Vitali doesn't have a bunch of brutal 1 punch KO's, Foreman does. This thread isn't about Vitali's power vs Foreman's anyway but I addressed it since you brought it up.

-In the case of Shavers vs Ali, quite simply Ali was a much better fighter even if he was older and more shopworn. He sparred Shavers before and took him very seriously and was cautious with him. Against Cooper, Ali was a very cocky and careless young fighter who let his guard down and Cooper caught him with a nasty shot with pinpoint accuracy. In fact, All of Ali's knockdowns were from left hooks which shows it was more a stylistic weakness of Ali than Cooper simply being extremely powerful compared to other Ali opponents (although he certainly did have a heavy hook).

You did actually write that size and weight meant that guys will likely hit harder on average:

I gave you several examples debunking this. You can have a guy whose a 6'6 string bean that can't punch their way out of a paper bag, and then you can have a skinny guy like Wilder who hits like a truck. You can have a huge obese guy like Fury who lacks power, and then you have an obese guy like Andry Ruiz who has sizzling hands and knockout power. Weight and height do not correlate to punching power at all.

 

But then you have Foreman and the Holyfield fight. Foreman claimed to have been the hardest puncher Holyfield faced but is was Bowe and Cooper who knocked him down. And Bowe stopped him brutally. Briggs 30 pounds heavier against Vitali than Foreman and Lewis. And it was muscle, not fat. That can affect your punch resistance.

It was Vitali who rocked Lewis with a straight right. but when Tua landed it didn't do anything. Lots of factors in punching power.

And i can give you several examples to back it up. Why do you think Foreman, Ron Lyle and Cooney hit so hard for their era ? They were large heavyweights for that era. And shavers landed a multitude of rights but he wasn't able to put Ali down. But shavers hit harder than Foreman based of peoples experiences. And shavers hit hard because he chopped wood as training and that built his shoulder muscles if im not mistaken. Wilder hits so hard because he can use his height and reach and rely on leverage and speed for his power. So thats height and speed

Weight and height dont corralate to punching power at all ? That statement goes against science. Size matters but only to an extent. Other things matter to an extent like fast twitch muscles, coordination, and technique and other things. But if what your saying about weight and size having NO correlation to power is true then why do heavyweights on average hit harder than cruiserweights and light heavywieghts ? Why ? Maybe its because weight correlates with punch resistance and power more often than not. On average If two people have similar attributes besides size then the far larger person has more potential to punch a lot harder.