Prime Razor Ruddock vs Prime Joe Louis

Ah, right. We only pull out the “mental gymnastics” card for our modern SHW hero’s.

He wasn’t clumsy, he was just (insert intricate explanation here). Silly me.

But those old time fighters!? ****ers held their hands 10 degrees lower on the x axis than they should.

 

Ray Impelletierre - 6'8, 258 lbs
Victorio Campolo - 6'6, 280 lbs
Jose Santa - 6'8, 247 lbs
Bearcat Wright - 6'1 and 220 lbs
George Godfrey - 6'3 and 250 lbs

Sure, he look absolutely better:
https://swiatwalk.pl/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Tyson-Fury.jpg

Than Primo here:
https://static.fanpage.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/primo-carnera-1200x799.jpg

You're ridiculous, Primo had more muscle mass than 95% of modern boxers despite not using steroids.

 

Holyfield actually explained how he survived the Foreman bout. Foreman's jab was so powerful it pushed Holyfield out of range several times and he was unable to follow up with the right hand. Foreman himself acknowledges this and shortened up his jab in the Moorer fight so that he wasn't constantly pushing his opponents out of range before he could follow up. That's why Holyfield survived and Moorer got knocked out (and Holyfield use lateral movement and tied up when hurt and had better defense. Moorer stood in front of Foreman going for the KO and paid for it).

Holyfield's chin held up for 24 rounds previously with Bowe. In the 3rd fight, Holyfield was having serious heart problems (probably from the steroid use), was dealing with hepatitis, and he didn't pace himself well and tried too hard to knockout Bowe after he knocked him down. Holyfield was a seasoned veteran by the time he fought Bowe so making the mistake of trying too hard to KO his opponent was likely out of desperation to end the fight. Even Foreman noticed Holyfield's stamina was rapidly declining and it made no sense since he normally had great stamina.

Just stop. Briggs was a 38 year old wheezing asthmatic and completely washed up. He stood right in front of Vitali who threw bomb after bomb for 12 rounds and couldn't put a dent in him. Briggs barely threw anything back, wasn't moving his feet, nor his head, and had a leaky guard.

Vitali did not drop Lewis, nor did Tua so I don't get why you even brought that up. Lewis never mentioned Vitali as being one of the hardest hitters he faced. He actually mentioned Briggs lol, who did in fact drop him but the ropes kept him up. Briggs just lacked the skill and finishing ability to take him out.

I just told you that there are boxers the same height as WIlder who have skinny legs yet they do not hit nearly as hard as Wilder.

As for the last part about size and power, I can debunk what you said with your own examples. You claim Foreman, Lyle, and Cooney were only scoring KO''s because they were so much bigger than everyone else. They were 6'3, 6'4, and 6'6 and 220-230. So how come the 6'3, 6'4, and 6'6 220-240+ Buster Mathis, Joe Bugner, and Ernie Terrel severely lacked punching power...? They ALL fought in the same era! Yet one group scored savage knockouts while the other group often put the crowd to sleep rather than their opponents.

 

Holyfield took a powerful overhand right flush from Foreman in round 7 and and got hit with several power punches in the mid rounds Holyfields chin was solid. Michael Moorer didn't have the best chin. He got obliterated by Tua and got punches around the ring by Holyfield in the rematch. Bowe knocked him down in the first fight also.

Vitali rocked him, i never said he dropped him. I brought it up because it was a right straight that wobbled Lewis but multiple left hooks from tua that did land didn't do anything to lewis. Couldn't put a dent in him ? He put Briggs in the hospital. Astha doesn't affect punch resistance so i dont know why you're bringing that up. Vitali was a clubber. Lewis never mentioned anybody as the hardest puncher except briggs. He never mentioned Mccall, or Tua, or Holyfield, or Tyson, or Morrison, or Mercer, or Rahman, or Ruddock. Doesn't mean they don't hit hard.

Earnie terell was a stick and terell and bunger used their height. They didn't press forward. And buster mathis was fat. No muscle.

 

1-I didn't say Foreman never landed any right hands, I said he missed many of them because he kept pushing Holyfield out of range. BOTH HOLYFIELD AND FOREMAN SAID THIS, are you going to argue against what both fighters said?

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2-Yes Bowe knocked him down in the 1st fight, very late, and Holyfield got right back up and continues brawling. That actually goes against your argument because Holyfield showed amazing stamina and recovery in other fights like against Bert Cooper. The 3rd bowe fight was a weird anomly. Everyone who watched it knew something was wrong with Holyfield and he said he had hepatitis. Why are you arguing with stuff that has been documented heavily years ago...?

3-Tua pretty much quit. Did you watch the fight? He showed no heart in that fight and didn't go for broke knowing he was down on the cards. Tua's got short T Rex arms and it was fairly easy for Lewis to see the punches coming and block or tie him up. A left hook and a right hand are totally different punches and feel different when they land. You're getting real desperate saying Lewis got "buckled" while ignoring the fact Vitali couldn't knock out a fat 38 year old past his prime fighter. The point in me saying he didn't mention Vitali is that he didn't impressive him. In the best I faced interview he mentions guys like briggs and Mercer and Holyfield as remarkable fighters but didn't think much of Vitali. Here's a direct quote:

"At my worst I still beat him at my best". Lennox was fat, old, out of shape, and rearranged Vitali's face. He never considered him his most difficult or challenging opponent.

4-Asthma doesn't affect your jaw, but it does affect your ability to take a punch because it makes your stamina worse. The worse your stamina, the harder it is to keep your hands up to punch or block and the easier it is to get dropped. The point being a wheezing 38 year old stationary Briggs didn't get dropped by a prime Vitali throwing hundreds of flush bombs.

5-You are calling Terrel a "Stick" but he was the same height and weight as Wilder so why did he lack power? You keep arguing that height and weight mean that a fighter is going to hit harder but I gave you 6 fighters who had similar height and weight in the same era and 3 hit like a truck while the other 3 were mediocre punchers. Just stop. Mathis was fat? SO IS ANDY RUIZ and he hits hard with very sharp fast combinations.

Do you not realize how inconsistent you are being? You call a fighter a stick to explain his lack of KO's yet Wilder is skinny and is feared as one of the hardest hitters of all time. There are muscular guys like Briggs who hit very hard and there are muscular guys like Valuev who lack power despite being huge and tall. There are fat guys like Mathis who was an average puncher and there are fat guys like Ruiz who have good power. The point of all this is to show that there is no universal rule for determining or predicitng if a guy will hit hard. I've seen guys with big bulky guys with big fists and broad shoulders who hit can barely make the heavy bag move even with a combination and I've seen lanky guys with long fingers who can leave guys twitching and drooling on the canvas and vice versa. I've seen skinny guys who couldn't knockout out an old lady and I've seen muscular guys like Joshua who do have good power. There is no universal measuring stick.

 

That doesn't go against my argument, it doesn't matter. He still landed some powerful flush shots and didn't drop Holyfield regardless. Yet you had fighters that punch no where near as hard as Foreman drop him. And Tua didn't quit. Lewis shut down his workrate by making him miss and making him pay.

Nobody's getting desperate. Lewis himself said Klitschko caught him with a good punch and buckled him to the point where he had to clinch.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da.../boxing-news-lennox-lewis-vitali-16794771.amp
He has some good stuff to say about Klitschko and even admitted Klitschko was awkward to deal with and smart.

Look you have to realize Shannon Briggs put on 30 pounds of muscle in the Klitschko fight as opposed to weight 228 against Foreman and Lewis. When you increase your size that much, neck muscles etc. your bodyweight can act as an anchor and absorb more damage. We know this to be true because ON AVERAGE more massive people do have better chins. Does Vitali hit as hard as Lewis ? No but he destroyed Briggs face and put him in the hospital and by Briggs own assertion Vitali was powerful.

I knew you were gonna talk about Wilder. Wilder punches so hard because he scraps all of that boxing crap and puts all of his force into his right hand. Unlike Terell and Bunger. He uses his height and reach for leverage to accomplish this. Not similar but somewhat reminiscent to how Foreman put all his bodyweight into his punches. No boxing bullcrap. Foreman threw his punches with mean intention and knew how to throw his weight into them. Probably why he hit so hard.
Fury wasn't able to hit hard because he couldn't turn his shots over but notice when he trained with Javon and learned to really sit on his punches and turn his shots over he ended up slapping Wilder around the ring. Not even something Luis Ortiz could do. Humans are all different but its a fact that size does matter in a general sense. Not all the time. If it didn't matter AT ALL then light heavyweights and cruiserweights should just fight heavyweights at their natural weight right ?

Its a fact that heavyweights hit the hardest out of all the divisions. And its likely heavyweights on average now hit harder than they did in the early 1900s because they've gotten bigger and stronger in general and boxing science and technology have improved.

And dont misquote me on Vitali vs Lewis. I agree Lewis in his prime would have beaten him easier

 

So you think James Toney hits harder than Foreman? Henry Cooper hits harder than Shavers? Because that is the conclusion you will reach if you keep going down this path.

You are going way, way off topic now because you want to drag down other punchers instead of accepting that Vitali's power is overrated.

If you shut down someone's offense you basically made them submit and quit. That didn't happen to relentless guys like Armstrong, Porter, Maidana, Frazier, Dempsey, etc. They never stopped. Tua did.

And Lewis also said he beat Klitschko at his worst which is a FACT. This was Lewis in his last fight, 38, and out of shape and Vitali couldn't stop him. He couldn't knock down an obese flat footed Samnuel Peter, or a zero defense brawler Chris Arreola, or the feather fisted former light heavyweight Byrd, or the C level mediocre Chisora, and on and on. There are way too many of Vitali's opponents who remain on their feet without getting dropped to consider him an elite puncher. He simply isn't. You can make all the excuses you want but aside from tomato cans he rarely actually KNOCKS OUT his best opponents. Last time I checked knocking guys out was the biggest indicator of punching power. I don't know what measurement you use, but then again you're the guy who said Joe Joyce "must" have power because he's tall and broke and eyesocket.

Do me a favor and name ONE elite prime opponent Vitali had down for the count of 10. Just one.

So all a guy with low punch resistence has to do is gain a bunch of weight? So Amir Khan just needs to lift weights, add muscle and move up to super middle weight and he'll have an iron chin? Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? Adding some weight through blatant steroid abuse isn't going to give someone a granite chin all of a sudden. You either have a solid chin or you don't, the only thing that can improve is your defense or anticipation to roll with shots to reduce the impact. Go ahead and tell a boxing trainer that their fighter simply needs to bulk up to improve their ability to take a punch, let me know how that goes.

Briggs was a STATIONARY TARGET FOR 12 ROUNDS with NO defense. I wouldn't care if he was 280 lbs of muscle. He barely threw anything back and was a shot old fighter. He is yet another example of a wide open target that Vitali hammered away at with flush bombs and couldn't put away for whatever reason.

You can't use size and Briggs being heavier than he was against Foreman and Lewis because Vitali was ALSO a huge 240 pound guy. Vitali was almost always the biggest guy in the ring no matter which opponent and stopped men who were the size of Briggs so that's invalid.

I don't give a damn what happened to Briggs in the hospital, he was shot old fighter who remained on his feet from start to finish. George Chuvalo made Ali go to the hospital and Ali peed blood from his body shots, is Chuvalo all of a sudden a world class elite puncher too?

So how do you explain skinny lanky Thomas Hearns, who was built very similarly to Wilder, scoring brutal knockouts? He wasn't sloppy, he actually had superb technique and wasn't swinging for the fences with all his body weight. One of the guys at my gym is also like that, really lanky 6'4 guy with long bony arms but he rattled me when we sparred, and no he wasn't swinging wildly either.

Weight classes matter because if you're like 50 lbs heavier than your opponent you can do what Fury did to Wilder and simply clinch and lean on smaller opponents constantly to tire them out, wrestle, etc. Usually heavyweights are well over 6'2 with long arms and dwarf light heavies who are usually between 5'10-6'1 with much shorter arms. Once you get to above 200 lbs the human body must be trained properly with the right kind of diet and strength training otherwise you will just become an overweight plodder or a muscle bound stiff with poor stamina.

And historically light heavies and cruisers did in fact fight modern sized heavies and had plenty of success. We used to only have 8 divisions and then all the sanctioning bodies realized they could make a ton more money with more belts and divisions. It was greed, not the safety of the fighters, that led to extra divisions like cruiserweight.

Anyway, my point was never that size doesn't matter or that being 30+ lbs heavier than an opponent won't give you some advantages. My point was that there is no scientifically proven measuring stick for determining how fighter A has great punching power and fighter B doesn't. That's why I gave you all those examples of fighters with similar body types and weight having drastically different punching power. You can deny it all you want but there is NO WAY of figuring out how it works and it has been argued on this forum and others and by trainers and scientists for literally more than 100 years. If it was as simple as gaining more weight to punch harder literally every heavyweight would bulk up to 250+.

Of course heavyweights hit harder than the other divisions. I never said they don't. What I'm saying is once you get to 200 lbs and above there is literally no 1 universal rule for determining who hits hard and who doesn't. This is simply reality. Like I said, you can have 2 muscular guys that are the same height and weight and yet for some reason one guy hits way harder than the other. You can have 2 fat guys and encounter the same thing. 2 tall lanky guys of the same weight and one hits way harder. It's impossible to determine.

That's why you making claims like Usyk is much stronger and hits harder going from 205-215 makes zero sense. Unless we suddenly see him start knocking guys out at heavyweight that claim doesn't hold up under scrutiny. There is WAY more money at HW than cruiser so if it was that simple he would have moved up much sooner.

 

These guys weren't really skilled or world level. And he's fitter but not larger. He was 273 against Wilder if im not mistaken and Fury would box circles around him

 

Lol no. You're entire argument is assuming i think bigger guys always hit harder. I said on average
Multiple times. Ill respond to you later

 

@Glass City Cobra

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....
Compared to Baer and da Preem he's another Roy Jones.

 

You asked me for guys as big as modern HWs. Chisora isn't world level either.

Carnera weighed 285 lbs at his biggest and he was still fitter than Fury then.

 

He's not though, that's the point.

 

Yeah but he's 10 times stiffer than Joshua. Even Whyte could outbox him. I see him on film and he isn't impressive what so ever

 

Nobody is off topic im bringing up examples to prove my point about knockout power. You on the contrary brought up examples to prove your point so why not me. Ill sum up all your points.
You still haven't adressed the fact that Lennox Lewis acknowledged Vitalis right straight wobbled him and almost knocked him out and Vitali destroyed briggs face and sent him to the hospital Vitali doesn't have one punch power like Wladimir or even Foreman but by Shannon Briggs own words he punched harder than Foreman and since power is the last thing to go. Vitali must have some decent punching power. But if you want to brush off his words then lets do it for every boxer. Dont pick and choose. Thats half you're argument gone

And Tua wasn't some relentless swarmer like Frazier or Marciano he slowly applied pressure. You can see him getting his head boxed off by Byrd and fighting Rahman that he was a plodder not a heavyweight Maindana. he didn't all of the sudden go for the kill at a point. He had slow feet. Kind of like Andy Ruiz.

And i never called Vitali an elite puncher. You're putting words in my mouth again. I just said he was heavy handed. Bean went the distance with Holyfield and Moorer. Got stopped by Vitali. Donlad never got knocked down in his career. Got punched around by Vitali.

And you're using Glass chin Amir Khan to support you're argument. Shannon Briggs doesn't have a glass chin. I think thats a fallacy. Neck muscles can affect how much your head thrashes back and fourth. A strong neck in MOST cases can absorb more impact energy than a far thinner one. A knockout is caused by your brain suddenly bounces around your head due to the head jolting quickly in a certain direction. This is also why punches you cant see knock a lot of people out because they can't ride them off and take their momentum out.

What does Vitali also being a 240 pound guy have to do with this ? Its not invalid because the subject is pure punching power.

And Tommy Hearns punched so hard because long range right straights were implemented in his Kronk Style, similar to Wilder throwing long range right hands. Not so much Terell. Sticks can hit hard but their not heavy handed. They can use speed and snapping power when they throw a full powered punch. Not so much Terell. There are different kinds of power. I think we know this

Weight classes exist because of that and that superheavyweights ON AVERAGE hit harder as well. See you keep missing those words. On average. I said in a previous post i dont deal in absolutes. You're argument is based on you assuming i claimed Bigger men always hit harder. There is no measuring stick but it's a scientific fact bigger men ON AVERAGE do hit harder. There isn't one thing you can measure punching power with but in a lot of cases weight is a factor as it can complement leverage, as is technique, shoulder snap, genetics, speed etc. But weight does play a part lots of times which is why heavyweights hit the hardest. No absolute measuring stick. I never said there was. Humans are all different. You keep replying to a point a never made

Heavyweights got bigger and bigger and more and more skilled and science and technology was advancing. Past super heavyweights like Buddy Baer would get destroyed by modern super heavyweights due to the gap in technique. And if Buddy Baer was a formidable threat in his era just based on his size imagine somebody like 90s Riddick Bowe stepping foot in the early 1900s. It was unfair to make 190 pound fighters go against heavyweights like this.

And last but not least did you not see how 250lb chisora was manhandeling him in the clinches ? 217 Usyk at heavyweight isnt strong but speaking from a realistic point he's actually bigger than prime Ali. And technically more sound than Walcott. I never said Usyk was a power puncher. Please quote me when i did