Prime Riddick Bowe vs prime Rocky Marciano (12 rounds)

I posted the video watch it yourself. It's a lefthook off the top of mercers head.

 

I understand the point and have seen the tape many times ... that was not why he went down. He went down because he had a rib cracked a few moments earlier ... if you watch the hook it was not that big a shot nor did it hit Ray in a soft spot ... I love Evander. I'm not knocking him. Simply stating the facts ...

 

There is no bodyshot even close to the sequence that dropped Mercer. It was a lefthook that landed solid off the top of Mercers head. It definitely was a solid landing shot and it has nothing to do with knocking Holyfield, its just a fact. Watch the video.

 

You cant even understand the point. Sometimes an accurate puncher can make up for his lack of power by his ability to land a shot cleaner and in the right spot, thus the reasoning why Holyfield was able to drop guys with iron chins, who bigger punchers couldnt. Sure a guy like Foreman could punch harder punch for punch, but he couldnt even manage to drop a guy who was knocked out in 13 seconds by one punch and stopped in all of his losses. Power is useless if it cant be delivered properly, and against a 6'5" 240 pound Bowe it might be hard for Marciano to even get a chance.


Great insults in your posts, you're really showing your age.

 

Of course I understand that point. Why are you trying to act like you know something I don't, or that I'm missing something? I'm talking simply power for power. You can't give Marciano his dues in a match like this if you don't think he hits as hard or harder than Holyfield (Which is crazy). Marciano could land a bomb in the right spot and seriously trouble Bowe... Holyfield just couldn't seem to do that in their first fight. Yes, Holyfield was a very accurate pin-point puncher. Accuracy can dent great chins but it generally takes some form of an accumulation. Don't get all self-righteous now, your the one that started with the petty insults.

 

No you didnt otherwise you wouldnt have stated this, which by the way I took as the first insult thrown my way.

Yes I can, I just dont think he hits much harder than a 210 pound Bert Cooper who hit Bowe with his best shot and couldnt budge him.

No it doesnt, it just requires the punch to land in the correct spot.

 

Okay, I think we're having a communication breakdown. The accuracy justifying comment comes from the fact that you aren't sure Marciano hits harder than Holyfield. I think that's frankly, absurd. However, when talking about harder punchers I'm thinking we're talking about more powerful punches. Shavers hit harder than Foreman IE Shavers is a more powerful puncher.

Marciano has many 1 punch KO's on his record. Holyfield has absolutely no notable 1 punch KO's except against a fat, lazy Buster Douglas. And from my memory it seems like he was content to stay on the canvas and wasn't knocked out (Could've gotten up). Marciano's power is far more comparable to Mike Tyson than Evander Holyfield. Marciano actually probably has more 1 punch KO's over rated opponents than Tyson does. And of course, Tyson has speed and accuracy to be the more sharper puncher. This tells a lot about Marciano's power.

If you were trying to make the argument that Bowe is ultra durable, and probably could take Rocky's best then that's fine. I still think his work-rate and power would have to slow Bowe down, if not maybe hurt him. Holyfield is an accurate puncher but at 205 pounds he was much lighter puncher. The 217 lb bulked Holyfield hit a little harder and produced more powerful looking knockdowns and KO (Mercer, Moorer, Tyson, Bowe, etc). The 205 lb version had to rely more on accumulation.

Lastly, as far as the Cooper statement specifically. I think we both can agree while Cooper was a journeyman he hit harder than Holyfield. Cooper hit Bowe with his best? I don't remember that. Cooper didn't have the skills to sustain or do anything. He gave it a go, but Bowe won inside 2 rounds. Hardly enough to show Bowe taking Cooper's best or a sustained attack. Fight doesn't prove anything.

 

I'm letting you know that you are wrong. This has been discussed forever. Believe what you like, as is your right.

 

How can anyone be sure that Marciano hit harder than Holyfield ? I'm not saying he wasn't but to be "sure" ? Holyfield fought much bigger, stronger and better fighters. Much better. If Evander fought his career against Rocky's opposition who knows ... can you imagine Holyfield against Savold, LaStarza or Cockell ?

 

..........What? It's common sense. It's factual even. Ask your fellow historian friends. They will all tell you. Use your own eyes. It's all there. Marciano was clearly, without doubt, the harder hitter. Holyfield did not have a punch that compares to Marciano's SuzieQ Right Hand.

 

Can you please watch the video again. They even show it in slow motion at the end of the 8th. There is no bodyshot in the sequence that hurts Mercer. Its clearly the lefthook that rattles Mercer, you can instantly see his eyes do a loopty loop.

 

To ask this question is to ask a bigger question of whether or not we have to completely re-evaluate what we know about boxing. We must ask about how boxing has progressed. How bigger, stronger may not be better but different. How much does a bigger more blown up fighter have a sturdier chin? Would that size and strength improve his chin, or would that lesser conditioning level things out. How do we gauge this? Is Earnie Shavers really the universe hardest hitting HW puncher of all time when he weighed a meager 208lb in his prime? How can Shavers hit harder than someone like Lennox Lewis who was facing much bigger stronger fighters more often? Foreman couldn't even KO some of his smaller opposition (Peralta, Davialia).

Holyfield on his track record doesn't show one punch power. To not be sure, is not to be sure about anything. Nat Fleisher said any man above 180 pounds could potentially whip any man. Even at CW Holyfield showed great accuracy but never bludgeoning power. Marciano one punch KOed more rated fighters than most fighters in the history of the division. How much better of a chin does a blown up LHW Moorer have than Walcott? Who knows. But to not be sure about this is to not be sure that Dempsey and Louis are some of the best punchers and fighters in the division. Marciano beat a few big men in RI and surely they weren't skilled big men but they were big men and he had no problem disposing of them. In fact, these bigger fighters were bigger targets and easier to KO. They lacked skills, but their chins would presumably have been more improved on average than the averaged size HW of that time if size and strength are an important criteria for chin (Leg strength, back strength, and neck size are general factors).

If you aren't sure Marciano hits harder than Holyfield than you aren't sure Dempsey, Louis, Liston, Frazier, and Marciano were some of the biggest punchers in the division. Holyfield certainly does not belong in this elite class and was never known as some big puncher. Back to the original question. How much does size improve one's chin? Louis and Dempsey were giant killers, but Dempsey recognized Marciano as the hardest puncher in the division history. And Louis and Marciano have common opposition that points to their power being comparable, many leaning toward Marciano being the harder puncher. Lastly, Eddie Futch picks Frazier to beat a prime Bowe. The size discrepancy there would be noticeable, much bigger than if Holmes or Ali were to fight Marciano.

 

Neither did his left match Rocky's power.

Yes, Holyfield would've looked better against Cockell because Cockell was entrenched in a backing up survival stuck in the mud gameplan. Speed would have done him much earlier, and it's not like Marciano's finest moment on film. I admit, he's worse than the rating indicates. I believe the era to have dried up by the end of Marciano's reign. Cockell came at the right time and beat Marciano's broken down leftovers (LaStarza). More importantly it was a comeback fight from that nose injury for Rocky. Savold could have been stopped just as early if not earlier but he wouldn't have been bludgeoned as badly. LaStarza and Holyfield would have been a counter-punching match with the stronger Holyfield dictating more often. Holyfield wouldn't have been able to break blood vessels in LaStarza's arms, though.

Yes, Marciano was a powerful puncher but not the most accurate. He also isn't the best finisher, but he could land the right punch and was capable of landing the perfect punch. And when he did it caused serious consequence. It knocked Layne senseless, and knocked a few teeth out. It had Louis knocked out through the ropes... in worse position and shape than he had ever looked in a boxing ring. It had Walcott down and completely out... they could have counted to 50. I can't imagine any circumstance where they could have counted to 50 for Holyfield with his opponent not getting up. Holyifled's has only 1 1 punch KO over a rated fighter I know of and that was over Douglas who seemed content to take the count (And capable of getting up).

The point is most men weren't looking to go head on with Marciano. Bowe would be willing to engage. And while he was very skilled, strong, and great on the inside it would favor Rocky's style. Rocky has little chance against the Lennox Lewis superheavyweight types. Bowe is a more feasible scenario. In 12 rounds I think Bowe wins but in 15 rounds Bowe would have a serious fight on his hands. That stamina, power, and type of grueling fight has to start favoring Rocky. And before any mentions Charles Bowe wasn't ever as technical, crafty, or as smart and experience as Ezzard was. Bowe would in no way be able to nullify Rocky's left the way Ezzard Charles had.

 

Historical friends are ridiculously biased. How about asking a legit trainer like Emanuel Steward who already addressed this in his last interview. A big part of Lennox Lewis success was being physical with smaller men it made up for some his shortcomings as a fighter.. Thats a big part of Emanuel Stewards teachings now with Wlad, take advantage of the size factor.
Theres no proof of how Marciano would do against a fighter of Bowes size and stature, thats also clear.
Its like comparing Foreman Fraizer, only Frazier was bigger, you have two fighters who are going to engage each other at close range.
I could see there being a slight arguement if we were talking about a boxer mover with a lot of speed.
Frankly I hate these arguements, its like comparing a welterweight to a cruiserweight. These type of arguements only seem to apply to a heavyweight.
If we made a thread about welterweight Manny Pac fighting cruiserweight Evander Holyfield, everyone would laugh, just like they are doing in the Hagler old Holyfield thread. :?

 

Bowe wins this fight easily against the light heavyweight.