Prime Riddick Bowe vs prime Rocky Marciano (12 rounds)

-I don't think Holyfield got that much better the following year, the Qwai knockout is just one of those things that happens in boxing. Hammer a fighter with everything you have one fight, they oddly crumble from less the next. See Bute/Andrae.

-They were inconsistent, however Valdez and Baker were both ranked number one when Moore beat them. By all accounts, Moore freely brawled and took flush punishment from the massive Valdez in the rematch and held up very well. If anything, we know Valdez could hit.

-Preposterous. Moore was stopped 3 times at heavy in a decade; 2 all time great offensive fighters and the greatest in his prime. How about young 211 lb KO artist Lavorante, who stopped Zora Foley? Moore put him out on a stretcher while nearing 50.

-Your opinion of how Holyfield does against Moore does not discreidt what the Mongoose proved in the ring. I don't expect Evander to jump Moore and hammer him out...it would probably be closer to the Harold Johnson fights.

 

Moore was a hell of a fighter at heavyweight, even as an old man but again it comes down to styles. Archie was able to give Rocky a decent show and survive almost nine rounds while he barely laid a glove on Patterson and was flattened in six. We all know Rocky does a number on Floyd head to head ... my point once again is styles ...At forty plus Archie was not able to deal with speed ... Holyfield would have likely been a tougher match up for Archie because of his style ...

 

Johnson was faster and more accurate than Holyfield, and he struggled to put his punches together against Archie.

Marciano's awkward attacks were visibily confusing to Moore and his ridiculious constant 60-80 punch barrages threw his boxing off. Evander didn't have that kind of workrate even as a cruiser, few do.

In the middle of a sex scandal, Moore wasn't really at his best against Patterson, who could take anyone's head off with his bolo punch. And yes, Patterson is also the fastest heavyweight in history. I would say Ali's speed kills a 49 year old Moore no doubt.

Evander wasn't really that quick, visibily slower than most of his opponents. Even in his 30s, Moore would probably be the quicker of the two actually.

 

Maybe it was the confidence of growing into a champion, maybe he got stronger as he aged as most young men do. Holyfield was pretty emphaticly dominant at cruser and as a whole until he met Bowe

Valdez and Baker are clearly good wins, but very different animals to modern day SHWs in that they were several classes below, plus it wasn't abnormal for each to lose to much smaller men

The thing is Moore did not look durable against either Marciano or Patterson, plus he has a good few stoppage losses below HW too. Stopping Moore is clearly far easier than stopping Holyfield/Bowe

 

-Its open to speculation but it looked like a flash knockout to me. Considering Evander landed better punches in the first fight and never demonstrated that type of one punch power again.

-At this time Valdez was very effective at using his reach and size, controlling distance and smothering smaller fighters in the clinch. His win over Charles is as good as any single win on Wlad or Lewis' resume. So what Valdez went on to lose to Satterfield and Moore, both proven giant killers who would be threats to any Super Heavy in history.

-Few looked durable against Marciano or prime two guns blazing Patterson, mute point.

-I wouldn't say that. Holyfield/Bowe combined have not fought as many fights as Moore against as frequent top competition. Evander was stopped by Toney at 41, Moore stopped Lavorante in ihs late 40s. Bowe was brain damaged by 29....and save Hide, he didn't even face the biggest punchers of his era.

 

1. This is a point, I don't think Holyfield is a massive puncher but the point stands that he'd have more KO's if he fought a career against sub 200lb fighters

2. Your confusing big guys with average power for big great guys for massive power. Comparing Valdez and Baker to Lewis and Bowe, is like comparing Henry Cooper to Marciano

3. Well Pattersons power didnt bother Ali/Liston/Quary/Ellis too much did it?

4. Holyfield's HW competition is leagues above Moore's, Bowe's is on par with Moore. Bowe might have been brain damaged, he still never got ko'd despite has little in the way of a defense. No way Moore makes it out of the early rounds against the likes of Tyson/Lewis

 

20 Years isn't all of the HW history. I'm not inaccurate on my history.

While we're talking HWs of the last 20-30 years. We've had 2 come up from LHW to become champ, 1 from MW, and 2 from CW. While Lewis, Wlad, and Vitali have been the more dominant ones we've still had smaller HWs like Tyson, Holyfield having respectable reigns. Don't you rate Tyson over Lewis too?

I do acknowledge Bowe is a super-heavyweight with skills and athletic ability. I just think his style is better suited from the Frazier's and Marciano's of the word. Super-heavyweights that use distance and stick behind their jab more are matchups that Marciano could be virtually helpless in. Bowe will be there... bottom line. Why don't you acknowledge that point?

 

I love the talks of how the 50LB cap is too much when we have countless historical examples for smaller fighters overcoming bigger men. Yes, I realize these modern HWs are stronger, better coordinated, and more athletic. But the idea that it's like a WW against a CW or LHW is just patently absurd as there's no basis for that comparison to be viable, but there are many examples of smaller HWs using their speed and ability to overcome bigger foes. If you think Marciano's style doesn't translate again the super-big HWs in no way possible that's one thing, but don't insult the history which thoroughly shows many good big HWs being overcome by much smaller, faster, more agile HWs.

You'd think the 205lb Holyfield wasn't competitive at all, or didn't even win one fight against Bowe with the way talks are in this thread. That 30lb difference is too much. It be like a LW against a MW.

 

Johnson being more accurate is debatable ... he had trouble hitting Moore because Moore was tricky and Johnson could not take his power like Holyfield could of ... I disagree about Holyfield's speed , I think you're misinformed on the topic. Holyfield was very fast.

 

-No, the heavies of the 50s are a considerable class above the cruisers of Evander's era. Qwai and Tillman are not exactly a Moore, Walcott, Charles, Satterflied, Johnson. But yeah, if Holyfield set up shop in the barren Cruiser division, he probably would have more career KOs...more because of class than size difference.

-Uh, Cooper could bang. He just didn't take it as well. Oh, and so I guess heavyweight durability is defined by one's theoretical ability to take flush punishment from Bowe and Lewis? Yeah that doesn't sound illogical and baseless at all.

-lol how many times did Patterson hit Liston? Beyond that, the Floyd of the 60s was a saftey first technican who rarely loaded up like he did in his prime run.

-Holyfield's competition leagues above Moore's? Prime Ali and prime Charles? The 2 generally recognized greatest in their respective classes.

-Bah, The closest thing to an all time great spoiler either man fought was Evan Fields....I'd say Lewis and Tyson could be in for a hard night trying to catch the Mongoose.

 

Yes you are. History has changed. We havent had a small man dominate the division since the late 80's thats 22 years.

Jones Jr had one fight at heavyweight against a small one at that. Evander Holyfield did not dominate the division either. He had three title defenses (2 against older men Holmes and Foreman), before losing his title to a super heavyweight. He again lost his titles to a super heavyweight in the late 90's after three title defenses against men comparable to his size.
Haye has dominated nothing, never weighed 185 pounds as a pro and is 6'3". I'd also note that all three of these fighters dont have a style that comes anywhere close to Rocky Marciano's which is also a huge factor when discussing a 185 pound pressure fighter against a 235 pound one.

Mike Tyson was the last dominate "small" heavyweight champion that resembles Rockys style and he was still 220 pounds.

I have them ranked very closely, but yes I have Tyson slightly ahead of Lewis, but again that was 22 years ago since his reign, history has clearly changed.

Because its not necessarily true. Bowe would have a tremendous reach advantage, he could box behind a very good jab to setup his right hand. He could also fight way better inside than Lewis ever could. My feeling is quite the opposite regarding Lewis. Lewis never faced a guy who could mix it up as affectively as Marciano on the inside. If Marciano could close the gap, he would have more of a safe haven on the inside against Lewis, BUT, the size factor, as it would against Bowe, would take over. Both could very physical using their size to lean, push and throw punches inside. Rocky would have a hard time wrestling with either of them on the inside. Marciano was just too small, and it has nothing to do with Rocky as a fighter because he was a great one, in his era.

 

Some nice discussion here from both sides. Keep it up.

PowerPuncher,

Outside of Marciano, who would have trouble Bowe the most in the early 1950s?

 

Not sub 200 pounds, sure (Besides Jones Jr picking up a strap). But small relative to the Superheavyweights. Holyfield was a former CW and Moorer was a LHW. Super-heavyweights are a modern thing, and the history of the division has shown smaller HWs to be successful. When I say history I'm the one who's being accurate because I'm taking about the majority, and not just a selective part of history like you. So do you think guys like Frazier and Ali wouldn't be able to deal with these superheavyweights of today because these types have dominated in the last 22 years? That sort of logic is patently flawed.

Plenty of people rate Holyfield above Lewis, although that's a minority position. He was never starked out twice by C+ fighters. Holyfield was pretty much done by the late 90's. It's fine if you think Marciano's style doesn't translate. But don't like the size difference is absurd considering the history of the division. Even in the last 20 years guys have been giving massive weight disadvantages and still have won.

Lastly, do you think Haye beats Marciano?

And not for the better. It's not like Tyson wouldn't be successful today. Bigger isn't better.

Fair enough. My logic goes that a guy who using his height and range more would be more successful. Bowe didn't just fought inside a bit he seemed to cherish it. Holyfield doesn't have anywhere near the firepower or work-rate of Marciano. Marciano can get low and use his leverage. His short-arms could be an advantage, but when Bowe starts to try to fight a bit more on the mid-range it could be a detriment as well. If Holyfield can compete fighting with a lousy strategy, then a hard-punching Marciano who cherishes fights where people come to him might have a chance to be successful. Just my 2 cents. But your perspective on Lewis/Bowe vs Marciano is interesting.