Prime Riddick Bowe vs prime Rocky Marciano (12 rounds)

Theres still a monumental difference between a 215-220 pound fighter competing against a 235-245 pounder as compared to a 185 pounder competing against a 235-245, especially when the styles are going to have both fighters meeting head on, thats kind of the overiding point here.

 

Skilled super heavyweights became prevelant on the heavyweight scene in the early 90's. Riddick Bowe is considered the first super heavweight with elite skills, so again history has changed!

Ali yes, Frazier not a chance. Again style is the main factor, something you dont seem to understand here.

I rank Holyfield above Lennox Lewis, but that has nothing to do with domination, Lewis domination consisted of a weaker caliber of fighter.

Those same C+ fighters had size and power, and could just as easily land those same shots on a smaller elite fighter like Marciano and do exactly the same thing. Again the size of men puts a whole different equation in the fight. Lewis wasnt inferior to Mcall or Rahman, but they possessed power that in most cases 185 pound men did not.

50 pounds when talking about two elite fighters in this type of matchup is 100% absurd in my mind.

Not 50 pounds except Valuev, but hardly a comparable scenario, Valueav is not even a good fighter.

I dont know enough about Haye to make that kind of prediciton, he hasnt shown much of anything other than he has a little speed and boxing ability.

Its not, but I think Tyson would have to work a little harder to knock out some of todays heavyweights, because of their size.

His fights with Bowe were fought at a brutal pace.

It wasnt a lousy strategy, it was a necessary one for Evander's style. Its not like Holyfield dominated the second fight or boxed on his toes for 12 rounds, he just mixed in a bit more distance fighting, something Marciano would not be able to do.

 

Holy was only 205lbs first time out though, still a difference I agree

 

Yeah as i said still 20 pounds more makes a big difference.

 

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I really don't believe that the guys making light of giving up so much size and weight grasp what they are saying ... speak to the fighters ... I was just rereading "Facing Tyson" and Buster Mathis Jr. talked about how he was much more concerned to fight Riddick Bowe than Tyson because of the huge size difference in a match up with a very talented big man like Bowe ... all this talk about Marciano's heart is o.k. to a point but only up to a point. These are huge challanges he is being asked to overcome when it took his A game to defeat the much smaller guys he actually did fight ... I get back to there is an actual reason why weight divisions exist ... A speedy, prime Dempsey butchering an old, inactive Willard has created a bit of a false impression .. I'm not saying the smaller guys can't pull some off based on stylistic match up but it is the exception rather than the rule and the styles of the men involved are key.

 

Yes, but this doesn't prove that some smaller Heavyweights wouldn't have a shift. Heavyweights have gotten bigger in generally, but this is one of the most depleted eras in its history.

I understand everything, that's why I'm asking these questions. You're just not expressing yourself well. I understand the style aspect with size, but the discussion started with size in and of it self.

By the way, Futch picks Frazier over Bowe.

Most wouldn't agree with this. Lewis is unique as an ATG HW for getting sparked in World Title Fights against less than notable opposition not once but twice.

I understand Holyfield is a style than translates in fighting bigger men, but where you around at the time and did you think much of his chances (I realize he was the champ).

Wohoo, that's interesting. I totally disagree. I think a lot of these fat slobs would be their for the taking with no place to run. With so much size you start losing conditioning. Conditioning is an important aspect in the ability to withstand punishment. So while big fighters might be able to take 1 shot better. It doesn't neccessarily help them in withstanding a sustained amount of punishment. Not in the Ali vs Frazier III type ways. Lastly, it's not like guys like Williard, Carnera, Wlad, or Lewis have proven that the bigger man takes a bigger punch. If he has strong big legs, and a nice big neck that could be a boost that size brings. But measurements don't always equate size or strength.

His first fight which is the most active slowed down noticeably around the 3rd and 4th round. They picked up a bit around the 8th round but there were many lapses. Both fighters laid and stood in front of each other which made for a lot of action. They were there to hit back at each other. Holyfield was damn near spent by the later rounds. Marciano set a far higher pace against Charles and Moore, and he was throwing far heavier more damaging punches. The pace/work-rate Marciano set is not even close. In 2 or 3 rounds he might've equated the workrate of either Bowe and Holyfield for 6 rounds.

The second fight strategy was much better. Holyfield needed to mix up distance, and not go toe to toe in big exchanges. That was night and day the difference between Holyfield's chances. He was fighting a grueling war against a bigger, harder-punching fighting. It caused him to dramatically deteriorate. If that was a necessary strategy than you're basically saying Holyfield had no chance to beat Bowe in their first fight. He was winning those earlier rounds boxing, though. Marciano is much more fit to fight the type of fight that Holyfield fought than Holyfield. Zero doubt, and few dared trying to fight that fight with Marciano. If they did they ended up like Layne, knocked senseless.

 

Yes, but my entire argument is that Marciano is much more fit to fight this fight than Holyfield. He has much superior stamina, much better power, and comparable durability.

 

2 Questions.

1. Who's style is worse suited for Marciano.. Riddick Bowe or Lennox Lewis?

2. Who is more suited to fight the type of high-pace war that was fought in Bowe vs Holyfield I. Holyfield or Marciano? (This is an assumption that Bowe would fight that same trench war with Marciano that he did with Holyfield, of course).

 

The problem with talks on these matchups is people think Marciano is going to get hit more than he will. Marciano is going to get low and be a low center of gravity exploding upwards to punch. He's going to have great leverage with his short-arms coming up. He's not going to be as open and easy to hit as you'd imagine due to the small target Marciano presents himself. This will be even exaggerated with Marciano fighting a much bigger, taller fighter.

Goldman talks about Marciano and how his style is catered to fighting bigger stronger men. Yes, 1990's boxing evolved and Goldman's mindset on bigger fighters wasn't the same in the 1950's than it was currently. However, consider this... Goldman believe a prime Louis would've lost easier because he would come after and punched with Marciano and that's something you don't do. For me Marciano does fairly well against bigger fighters because of how low of a target he present and his damaging punching power/stamina. It's the cutey slick and fast boxers that gave him the most trouble because he has nothing to combat them with if he can't get to them.

I really wish John Garfield would come and talk in this thread. He has probably seen more boxing than anyone in this thread and he voted for Marciano. I would like to hear his insight and reasons why.

 

No hes not. Hes 20 pounds lighter, shorter, has more of a one dimensional style, and is not proven to be superior in any one area, including punching power. The only way to judge that would be to put 185 Marciano in with a guy like Bowe and see what happens. Holyfield on the other hand, has proven he can bang against comparable 185 pound men, and in fact his stoppage percentage against comparably sized heavyweights is just as impressive as Rocky's.

 

:-(

How many dimensions were fought in that fight after round 2?

:-(

 

I'm done

 

Outside of RM, definately Jersey Joe and Charles, Bowe can be outboxed as we saw in the Tubbs/Holy 2 fight, and these 2 are the best choices, Walcott more so though.

The question is can they keep Bowe off them? Another Cruser Hide outboxed and stunned Bowe for the first few rounds but couldn't him away and was going down time and again and just getting walked down. Now Hide isn't durable anyway but the theory still applies

If you've sparred you may know that when you fight a bigger man you can get really tired throwing your biggest punches and getting nowhere as you load up with really big bombs when the bigger guy gets results from his not so big punches. Thats pretty much what happened with Bowe-Hide

Its got to be said though all 3 of the 50s fighters used their attributes allot better and were smarter fighters than Bowe, Rocky included who is well underrated in this aspect

 

No, not really.

-His best cruiser KO, Qwai was 5'5" and went 15 with him previously. Tillman was of like size but faired poorly against 200 lbers of even modest quality. Moore, Walcott, and Charles actually busted up pretty good-excellent 200 lbers.

Also Cooper was of like size but was stopped like 14 times as a heavy, never cracking the rankings. Holyfield couldn't knock out other small heavies Bean, Ruiz, Byrd, and Stewart.

-Holyfield 's best HW stoppage wins were over 220 Tyson and fat cruiser Moorer. Not that much bigger men than 6'2 210 lb Louis, whom Rocky upset and knocked out cold.

Douglas was fat and disinterested. Dokes was a good stoppage but he had been inactive for a year and suffering from drug problems. Thomas was a washed up trial horse, maybe comparable to Marciano's crappy stoppage over Savold.