Prime Rocky Marciano vs Prime Earnie Shavers

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Dec 5, 2018.



  1. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,179
    1,318
    Sportsbook:
    234
    Oct 4, 2016

    Watch Shavers execution of Ken Norton, he was toe to toe for the entire round. There was no distance what so ever. If the rock doesn't wobble Shavers very early like Quarry did, he'll be on the end atomic bombs.
     
  2. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

    83,033
    8,146
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 2, 2006
    I think we can agree that Shavers hit appreciably harder than Walcott and Moore!
     
    mrkoolkevin, Pat M and Reinhardt like this.
  3. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,179
    1,318
    Sportsbook:
    234
    Oct 4, 2016

    As I said to Kasmirkid, if Rocky doesn't wobble Shavers early like Quarry did he's in big trouble, not that Ernie is a better fighter mind you, he's not. It's just these styles clash violently .
     
    mcvey likes this.
  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    62,203
    3,212
    Sportsbook:
    8
    Sep 15, 2009
    Rocky isn't a defensive wizard, but he can fight with caution when he respects someone's power.

    He fought much more reserved against Louis than he did as a champ.

    One part of me thinks it's always a bit silly favouring a man who never could become champion, over a man who did become champion. The careers panned out as they did for a reason and we know one was a champ and one wasn't.

    But another part of me thinks at what point do you consider weight to be too much. I always have this kinda inner debate when it comes to matchups like these. It goes something like this:

    Rocky managed to KO Johnny Shkor, who for all his faults is undoubtedly a super heavyweight. So we know he can beat a SHW of that level, so size alone isn't enough to beat Rocky. But beating a SHW one time fringe contender is not the same as beating a SHW elite level fighter, but he has proved he can beat a big man. The question becomes how good a big man can he beat. And that stays as a leap of faith then.

    Then I argue with myself and say "behave, a guy like Luis Ortiz or Shannon Briggs would kick ten bells of **** out of Rocky and the fight wouldn't even be sanctioned"

    Then I think just because he won a HW championship doesn't mean he's a HW fighter. I wouldn't expect Andre Ward to beat the best HW guys for example and Bob Foster certainly could beat the best HW guys. Weight is clesrlc insurmountable for some people, look at that ATG guy, I think it was Wilfredo Gomez who couldn't move up and be the same and that was only a couple of pounds.

    But then I think again some do move up in weight successfully so there's no reason that Rocky couldn't do so.

    And I akwaaltend to settle on the line of thinking that as a champion Rocky deserves the benefit of the doubt and if he comes in at 205-215 he can be a tough fighter for anyone with his relentless style and conditioning, but it's a huge leap of faith.

    And I firmly believe if we want to limit Rocky to 190 or less, we set him up for failure. Some say we should match the Rocky we knew as a fighter, and to them I say if you insist that the he doesn't far so well in llany of the matchups. I mean if Hagler Vs Spunks would have been made would Hagler really have come in at 160? I doubt it. The extra bulk could be a hindrance to Rocky but if we're gonna consider him in matchups against these big guys it's a necessity in my opinion.
     
    InMemoryofJakeLamotta likes this.
  5. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

    83,033
    8,146
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 2, 2006
    Louis was no longer the Brown Bomber by the time Rocky got to him he hardly threw his right .
    I only match fighters as they actually were.
    I'll give you another two guys that never won anything, Ibeabuchi & Tua,does Rocky steam roll through them?
    I pick Rocky to beat Shavers but I wouldn't put a penny on it.
    Shkor was washed up.
     
  6. Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders NSB defector Full Member

    4,987
    918
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Sep 13, 2012
    This has been dodged by @mcvey I wonder why.
     
  7. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    62,203
    3,212
    Sportsbook:
    8
    Sep 15, 2009

    Louis was a very poor version of himself, but the point is because Rocky respected his power he fought much more conservative than usual.

    Some agree with you on that. I don't. If Ward makes a comeback and fights Usyk I'm sure he'll weigh more than 175, I wouldn't make a pick based on a 25 pound weight gap.

    Of course he doesn't, no one ever steamrolled those two. I just think it's always an issue for me picking a man who never was champ in his career over a man who was. Ortiz and Briggs, would you pick Rocky to steamroll those two?

    I would pick Rocky but I'd bet on Shavers by KO because the odds would be too good to pass up.

    Shkor was beyond ****. But atleast we know Rocky can beat a beyond **** SHW. It's a starting point is it not?
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

    83,033
    8,146
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 2, 2006
    Added mass usually means added resistance to force.Yes?
    ps I never dodge anyone, I don't have to stall by saying lets agree to disagree when I run out of excuses as you did on another post. Want to dig me out ? You'll be sorry!
     
  9. Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders NSB defector Full Member

    4,987
    918
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Sep 13, 2012
    Erik Morales waist flab would help him take a Monzon right hand to the jaw. Gotcha.
     
  10. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    62,203
    3,212
    Sportsbook:
    8
    Sep 15, 2009
    Why does anyone add weight when they move up a weight class?
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

    83,033
    8,146
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 2, 2006
    Louis was ****ed, his power was really a thing of the past ,he busted up Rocky with his jab.You don't have to agree with me its just my take, no more valid than yours . Though I do find it endemic in Rocky fans when confronted with a 30+lbs differential in weight they like as not say," well Rocky would be 220 today" well if he was, he would be fat and have lost half his stamina and be slower. Ward coming back isn't remotely like adding surplus weight to a chunky little guy like Rocky.Marciano won a good half of his fights because he was in much better condition than his opponents and could throw power punches for 15 rds, he ran them out of gas and ambition, and the fact that the best of them were old men by boxing standards didn't hurt any either.


    I match the reality not hypothetical chimeras.
     
    Glass City Cobra likes this.
  12. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

    83,033
    8,146
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 2, 2006
    Why would it have to be around his waist?
    You haven't won much tonight, I'd call it quits if I were you.
     
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    62,203
    3,212
    Sportsbook:
    8
    Sep 15, 2009
    I don't even know if you're disagreeing with me at all tbh. Unless you are saying Rocky was not as cautious in that fight.

    I didn't say Rocky would be 220 today plus I'm not a fan of his. I much prefer Frank Bruno. I think Rocky would be a LHW or a CW today. Not a HW. If he did bulk up to HW he might lose half his stamina, or he might not, it's a leap of faith as I said. Some people carry weight well, some don't. With Rocky we'll never know will we.

    I mentioned Ward because there's a likelihood he'll pursue the Usyk fight. As common sense dictates he wouldn't willingly give up 25 pounds, I think the number of fighters who go up a weight class without adding weight is very very small.

    We all match hypotheticals. These fights never really occured. The whole task is a hypothetical. But as I said. If we're gonna make a fight and say "you must be 190 or lower" than I'm not in the least bit surprised if Shavers takes him out. Same with Ortiz and Briggs.
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey Boxing Junkie Full Member

    83,033
    8,146
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 2, 2006
    The choice is matching the reality or matching some hypothetical version and that is of no interest to me.
    Usyk will beat the **** out of Ward should Ward be stupid enough to come back.I don't see it happening, Usyk will fight heavies from now on.
     
  15. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    62,203
    3,212
    Sportsbook:
    8
    Sep 15, 2009
    As I said, I understand why some refuse to contemplate an increased weight for Rocky, but by the same aspect I refuse to matchup up guys from different weight classes without alkoeial one to increase weight.

    Like Hagler - Spinks.

    Wouldn't surprise me if Usyk beats the **** out of anyone he fights throughout the rest of his prime.
     

Share This Page