Prime Roy Jones Jr. vs. Artur Beterbiev.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by VG_Addict, Dec 23, 2021.

  1. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    IF he could have caught up with him.

    Not many did pre-HW.
     
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  2. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Luis Fernando,


    First of all, I really appreciate the effort that you’ve gone into here.

    To be honest, I didn’t really want an MMA debate. The only reason why I quoted you is because you initially said that Roy would get destroyed, yet the others wouldn’t, based upon their incredible offensive skills, despite the fact that Roy actually equaled them in terms of offensive fighting ability, where he displayed phenomenal speed along with great power and precision etc. If you’d not written that, then I’d happily have sat back and watched you debate with someone else. But again, I appreciate the effort you’ve gone to so I’ll debate your points.

    Fair enough.

    This is absolutely false. Roy had GREAT in-fighting abilities. The only reason why this claim would surprise people, is because most people think of in-fighting as a thing of the past, where two fighters fought in the centre of the ring. All of Roy’s in-fighting was done either in the corners or off of the ropes. He didn’t do it in every fight, but he did it quite often, and especially as he aged. I really don’t know where you’ve got the above information from. It’s baffling. I’ve seen Roy manoeuvre himself into a position where he’s hit his opponent with rapid fire double uppercuts and double body shots etc. Go and watch the Lacy fight. The Lacy fight wasn’t at all important, as Roy was no longer an elite level fighter then, and Glen was just sadly a punch bag at that stage. But I’ve mentioned it, as I’ve recently watched it, so it’s one of the first fights that comes to mind. He certainly did not just cover up. He displayed great hand speed and precision, even when pressed up against his opponents. You’re definitely selling him short here and you’ve obviously never seen these instances before. He did this is many of his fights.

    He did.

    It would obviously be very beneficial in MMA.

    I wrote that thinking of his P4P power. He has more speed and power than what Loma does.

    Okay. I’ve not seen this before. Thanks for sharing it. Again, I only quoted you due to what you initially said about Roy being butchered.

    Again, Roy possessed every attribute that YOU initially put forward for your argument.

    I respect this. But Roy could do that. Just because it wasn’t his M.O. it doesn’t mean that he couldn’t do it. In some fights he was very aggressive where he didn’t just sit back and wait to counter.

    Also, I don’t believe for a second he’d have done that against an MMA fighter.

    Why would Roy have stayed on the outside in MMA?

    If he’d have gone into MMA, he obviously wouldn’t have done that. It’s a completely different sport. Credit him with the intelligence of knowing that he’d have had to have changed from his normal style.

    They do. It’s very impressive.

    Roy didn’t jab very often, but he could.

    Roy fought aggressively against Paz, Richard Hall and in the Montell Griffin rematch, where he forced them back before knocking them out from different angles.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2021
  3. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You’ve really let yourself down here.
     
  4. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    Roy wasn't shot at 35 y/o FFS. That's just pure desperation damage limitation from his delusional fanboys who literally believe he was Superman in his prime, whilst completely ignoring the fact he was clearly a walking PED factory throughout it which is just one of multitude of reasons why it's hard to take them remotely seriously.

    I'll tell you exactly what happened. He stopped using roids when they introduced more stringent testing measures round about the time of the Balco scandal (he wasn't even being tested for steroids for the first 10-11 years of his career for goodness sake) and he simply got caught by a good punch by one of the few opponents he fought who could punch and actually believed in themselves and that they could beat him and as soon as his aura of invincibility had been shattered, as we have seen with many other supposedly "unbeatable'' fighters throughout history, it was like a domino effect and once people realized he wasn't the mythical unbeatable monster he'd been made out to be and that his chin had always been his Achilles heel his future opponents started to believe in themselves too and they now knew if they could touch that weak chin of his they could knock him senseless or out too. There's a reason who there's a complete dearth of savage punchers on his CV and why he was knocked out by most of the actual punchers he did face. As desperately as his fanboys want and more importantly need to believe all these pathetic excuses, that is not a coincidence.

    They're full of excuses, excuses they will never afford his rivals or certain other fighters, and they give him free pass after free pass for things they literally crucify other fighters for and the fact that they can't even concede that a fighter of 37 years of age or soon to be could be past their prime when fighters with that style burn out long before they reach that age, way way before, and trust me they're quick to make excuses for them too even if they're in their 20s. But when you pull them up about their insane double standards and lack of consistency they immediately divert to their default mode but but excuses.

    He's always had a batpoop crazy cult-like following but still some of these loons need to be and I suspect have already been sectioned.

    Just stop with the litany of excuses already we've had to listen to this crap for years :facepalm:

    Look at all the praise he gets for beating a drained to **** Toney who never fought at the weight again but when Toney needs s gift from the judges against other opponents who clearly beat him they immediately pivot to him being drained :facepalm:

    Like I said, how can anyone take them even remotely seriously?
     
  5. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    Crybabies arriving in 1.. 2.. 3
     
  6. mirkofilipovic

    mirkofilipovic ESB Management Full Member

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    Just ban them. These RJJ fanatics are worse than Covid.
     
  7. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Yes because Beterbiev isn't overrated
     
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  8. mirkofilipovic

    mirkofilipovic ESB Management Full Member

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    Only Tinman overrates him.
     
  9. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    That's the kind of thing they'd do if you gave them even a modicum of power. The membership of this forum would consist entirely of his loved up doe-eyed groupie fanatics if they had their way and anyone who didn't get down on bended knee and proclaim him the GOAT and unbeatable iron-jawed warrior who slayed a thousand savage punching KO artists would be hounded into becoming a recluse by The Cult of Roy

    Check this :facepalm:

    Guarantee you sales of each of these items will go up ten-fold within minutes of me posting pics of them and my inbox will be getting spammed nonstop with ''where can I get one of those?'' type messages


    This content is protected
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  10. Joe-fist

    Joe-fist Wise men fear nothing Full Member

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    your'e right about fanboys having double standards...when you use there logic against them they quickly find an excuse but don't dare to find one for your'e boxer...they will cry that you don't know boxing lol it's just a waste of times and efforts to go against a fanbase...and this fanboy bring Lacy fight,yeah the hype Lacy who got destroy by Calzague before and got expose real fast.I much respect more Joe more than Jones btw yeah Roy fanbase would say he accomplish more than Joe and that's fact! yeah again...no one can do nothing about that of course it's in the records books...like Canelo will be.But the real experts know who's belong and deserve to be a legit ATG.
     
  11. Luis Fernando

    Luis Fernando Well-Known Member Full Member

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    We have to agree to disagree! I don't rate Frazier all that highly as many do. I rate both Foreman and Ali, and do think they'd do well in any era. However, Frazier in my opinion was way too limited, one-paced and flawed technically to be anything but a fringe contender AT BEST today.

    You can rate Frazier opposite to how I rate him, and that's fine. However, you can't blame me for noticing massive holes in Frazier's game. I am happy to discuss those technical flaws in detail with anybody that knows what they're talking about.
     
  12. Luis Fernando

    Luis Fernando Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I appreciate your attempt to at least provide some kind of an argument!

    I actually just watched Roy Jones Jr vs Pazienza and Jeff Lacey. Against Jeff Lacey, Roy Jones Jr did actually fight on the inside and showed some inside-fighting skills. However, it was not anything special or anything to write home about. His power did not have anywhere near the same effect in close-quarters as it does from range. At least nothing in comparison to Beterbiev who can break opponents down with virtually no space or Lomachenko who can literally spark opponents in extremely limited space (against Anthony Crolla for example or his knockdown against Richard Commey).

    I personally wouldn't look too much into the Pazienza fight, as you rightly stated already, it was a mismatch to begin with due to the gulf in size. However, Roy Jones Jr's inside-fighting skills if anything, was shown to be lacking in that fight. Anytime Pazienza got on the inside, Roy looked kind of clueless in what to do with his hands held high, covering up and attempting to control Pazienza's neck (not all that effectively either). Roy Jones Jr lacked the know-how on how to properly tie-up an opponent on the inside like Pazienza and create room to get his own shots off, which was why Pazienza was able to land many of his punches on the inside (though wasn't hurting Roy Jones Jr either). He did better against Jeff Lacey mind you, but again, nothing that was exceptional to note.

    I'm not sure I'm selling Roy Jones Jr short, if I classify him as a rudimentary inside-fighter at best. He's clearly not on the level of Beterbiev, Roberto Duran, Vasyl Lomachenko or James Toney at inside-fighting, be it at short-punching or the ability to gain superior position through clinch-fighting. Unless I'm missing something that you may want to shed a light on?

    Has Roy Jones Jr ever knocked out a non-bum opponent with shots like these:



    At 1:53 mark, where Lomachenko barely even moves his arm and puts Crolla to sleep with a single shot?

    Or Beterbiev here:



    At 2:01 against an elite level opponent in Gvozdyk, where he rattles him whilst barely even moving his arm yet again?

    Or even here again from Beterbiev at 0:58 where he barely even touches the guy and still drops him:



    Roy Jones Jr was not that type of puncher, if I remember him correctly. He had great power from range when leaping in. But the effectiveness of his power was greatly reduced at close-quarters, unlike Beterbiev and Lomachenko.

    Again, I don't need to even mention the superiority of Beterbiev and Lomachenko at grappling, which if combined with the already existing short-punching abilities, make them significantly more dangerous and effective on the inside than Roy Jones Jr ever was and ever could be.

    This is what makes the likes of Beterbiev and Lomachenko that much more effective as overall fighters, than Roy Jones jr, and subsequently more prepared for something like MMA.

    As for Roy Jones Jr's footwork, as I've already stated, he had very explosive feet where he could leap into range from the outside. However, I've not seen a single fight where he showed high level bouncing ability like Lomachenko, Usyk, Pacquiao, or even Evander Holyfield. For the most part, he was very stationary and liked to stay planted, and leap in randomly when his opponent over-commits or makes a mistake.

    Now maybe Roy Jones Jr could do what you're claiming he could, but I've never seen him do so, and I can only go by what I've seen. Roy Jones Jr was of course a great athlete, but so are Lomacehnko and Usyk. Even if I grant you that Roy Jones Jr was an even better athlete than them, the gap between their athleticism is not as significant as the gap between their technical skills. Whilst Roy Jones Jr was a great athlete, he had very little to no fundamentals mastered. Whereas Lomachenko and Usyk also are great athletes, but have also mastered the fundamentals to boot and don't need to rely purely on their athleticism. This does make a difference because the skill required to do what Lomachenko and Usyk do with their feet, demands more than just athleticism. Just like a basketball player with explosive feet isn't going to be able to match a tango dancer on the dancing mat overnight purely off athleticism alone, Roy Jones Jr cannot match Usyk or Lomachenko for footwork, which is different from simply having fast or explosive feet.

    Now I'll be honest with you and say that had Roy Jones Jr grew up with someone like Anatoly Lomachenko (Vasyl Lomachenko's father) training and schooling him from a very young age, he may have become as good or perhaps even better than the likes of Lomachenko and Usyk. But as it stands, Roy Jones Jr simply was not fully and completely schooled in the science and martial-art of boxing. There are many gaps and holes that have not been filled in his game, for him to truly fulfil his potential like how Lomachenko and Usyk have. They are what Roy Jones Jr could have been, if he learnt to synergize his athleticism with actual rock-solid fundamentals. I don't think Roy Jones Jr would have even lost a fight to be honest. But that's a topic for another day.

    But coming back to the original topic at hand, if the ring is big enough, Roy Jones jr manages to outland Beterbiev to a victory perhaps. But in a smaller ring where Roy Jones Jr is forced to fight in a phone-booth type of fight where his movement is limited, he most likely gets knocked out cold by Beterbiev. I can't envisage any other outcome.

    The outcome would be determined mainly by the ring size among other things as always of course.

    I do sometimes post hyperboles that aren't meant to be taken seriously, and you need to read between the lines to know when, because most of my posts are serious otherwise, but Roy Jones Jr limitations aren't purely his own fault either. It is his fault to an extent, but also his trainers not being able to integrate a proper fundamentals to go with his athletic talent. So me saying he'd get destroyed in a freestyle 1vs1 combat, is not me dissing Roy Jones Jr, but pointing out his holes as a fighter.
     
  13. UniversalPart

    UniversalPart Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'm glad I am no longer the only one on here championing Beterbiev.
     
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  14. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What have we here?

    A bit of early morning fishing. Ha!

    We know that he was shot.

    You can’t mock him for getting knocked out by a love tap, and then at the same time say that he wasn’t shot.

    Of course he was shot.

    You can’t have it both ways.

    Glen would literally have been lucky to have taken a few rounds off of pre-HW version of Roy.

    Glen Johnson was tough. He was a warrior. But Roy was clearly damaged goods. Glen was just in the right place at the right time. He split 3 fights with Clinton Woods.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2021
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  15. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    At 4.38am?

    Ha!

    Couldn’t you sleep?

    I’ve been like that during the Christmas break.
     
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