Prime Roy Jones Jr. vs. Artur Beterbiev.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by VG_Addict, Dec 23, 2021.



  1. Loudon

    Loudon VIP Member Full Member

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    Ha!

    I love it.

    This debate’s really took off.

    It’s entertained me for hours.


    Okay.

    A few things:


    1. You’re now referring to Glen Johnson as a plodder. So according to you, Roy was knocked out by a love tap from a plodder, yet he WASN’T shot?

    2. If Roy was a former MW who had a glass jaw, then realistically, any SMW and LHW who he faced possessed the power needed to have knocked him out.

    3. Who were the savage punches who Roy avoided? Not the guys who he didn’t fight, but the guys who he actually went out of his way to actively avoid?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2021
  2. Loudon

    Loudon VIP Member Full Member

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    When have I not made allowances for other fighters?
     
  3. Loudon

    Loudon VIP Member Full Member

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    There’s no excuses here.

    I give Tarver all of the credit in the world for landing that perfect shot in the rematch.

    I also credit Glen Johnson, as he really was the ‘Road Warrior’ who’d fight anybody.

    One of the best things that I’ve ever heard in boxing, was when Glen said:

    “I’m not the best, but I’ll fight the best”

    However, it’s not an excuse to say that Roy was past his prime against Tarver, and completely finished as a top level fighter against Johnson.

    Those are not excuses if you followed Roy’s career.

    The first Tarver fight was a clear indication of Roy not being Roy. Yes, Tarver gave him a hard fight stylistically. But Roy was absolutely exhausted, where he was running on fumes for the last 3 rounds, despite the fight not being fought at a high pace. In many of the rounds, he was just laid on the ropes just covering up. The weight loss obviously affected him. And the same thing also happened to Chris Byrd and Chad Dawson. No excuses. Tarver was a great match up for Roy, but Roy was simply never the same fighter after he’d dropped back to LHW from HW.

    In the rematch, again, no excuses. It was a perfectly timed punch. Beautiful. Tarver deserved the plaudits.

    The Johnson match was completely different. Roy signed for that fight pretty much straight after the shocking loss to Tarver. And if you watch the fight, it didn’t even look like Roy. No movement, no belief. He just looked shell shocked. Serge himself as labelled Johnson as a plodder. Serge himself has said that Johnson knocked him cold with a love tap. He bullied Roy for 9 rounds before leaving him in an unconscious heap. Now I’m sorry, but I’m not being biased when I say that something was clearly amiss. I do give Glen credit for pressuring Roy, but to me, Roy was nowhere near 100% either mentally or physically.

    Glen didn’t present Roy with a particularly difficult stylistic match up. He wasn’t a puzzle which needed solving. He was just tough. Now you’re talking about a guy in Roy who went years without barely losing rounds in most of his fights, to a guy who ended up being bullied for 9 rounds by a pretty basic Glen Johnson, who was a guy who’d split 3 fights with Clinton Woods: 1-1-1

    To me, saying that he was shot against Johnson, is not me being biased.

    I know more than anyone that ‘styles make fights’

    I’m the biggest advocate of that old adage, which is as true today as when it was first spoken.

    However, IMHO, Glen Johnson was simply in the right place at the right time, just like how Shaun George was when he knocked out Chris Byrd.

    There’s a big difference between being biased and looking at legitimate factors as to why things went the way that they did.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  4. Loudon

    Loudon VIP Member Full Member

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    He didn’t fight great fighters at LHW, but he put in great performances where he mostly beat very good fighters with absolute ease.


    His best wins were:


    Griffin II

    A one round knockout via a lead uppercut. Griffin was a very good technical fighter who’d had 2 very close and controversial fights with James Toney.


    Hill

    A 4th round knockout via a devastating body shot. Roy was the only guy to ever knock him out, and Hill went on to win a CW title 2 years later.


    Reggie

    A master class against a still very capable fighter who was tricky and very skilled.


    Tarver

    A victory what was ground out against an opponent that gave him a very tough stylistic match up, after he’d burnt muscle to drop back to LHW from HW.
     
  5. Loudon

    Loudon VIP Member Full Member

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    How about the fact that nobody else ever beat Hill so emphatically?

    Dariusz wouldn’t fight Roy.

    He and his promoter/manager would never meet with Roy’s advisors and HBO in order to try and make a fight.

    No official negotiations ever took place.

    Every time HBO and Roy’s advisors reached out, they were rebuffed.
     
  6. Anima

    Anima Kinetic Link Full Member

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    Yall musta forgot
     
  7. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Agree, great post my friend.
     
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  8. Luis Fernando

    Luis Fernando Well-Known Member Full Member

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    You know you could directly quote me instead of just writing my name before your post, if your intention is to respond to me?

    I have different criteria for what constitutes 'excellence' if you classify Mayweather's combination punching as ever 'excellent'. The dude rarely ever threw more than 2 punches without a pause or interruption after his second punch. He may have had a great 1-2, but that's as far as I'm about to go. You're not an excellent combination-puncher if you can't throw more than 2 punches in succession fluidly without having to pause your motion.

    So you're going to cherry-pick just one fight where Roy Jones Jr showed some respectable competency on the inside (against Jeff Lacy)? LMFAO! You know what else can be done? I can show you one fight where Paulie Malignaggi stopped his opponent? So that should prove he has above average punching power now, right? LMFAO! That's the extent of your reasoning?

    How about the vast majority of his other fights, where he looked clueless in the pocket / inside? How about against Joe Calzaghe, who was borderline putting his head right on Roy Jones Jr's chest, outright mocking and clowning him? Where was Roy Jones Jr's inside fighting then, when he needed it most? All he could do was put the earmuffs on, and look utterly clueless.

    And before you mention Roy Jones Jr was declined in that bout, you had no issues mentioning his performance against Jeff Lacy (when he was declined in that bout as well) so I don't want to know about it.

    I literally typed Roy Jones Jr was RUDIMENTARY AT BEST on the inside, and I maintain this still. So no, I am not shifting any goal-posts or doing anything of the like here.

    And I already explained why I consider Roy Jones Jr to be rudimentary on the inside, so don't want to be repeating myself.

    LMFAO! So when I ask you to provide evidence, all you're going to do is just speculate? It doesn't matter whether you think he was capable of throwing knock-out punches at close-quarters with limited space if he wanted to, if you can't provide any feats to suggest he can, then we can't just grant him credit for something he's never shown to do.

    To understand just how flawed this position is. It's like me saying "Lomachenko can be as fast and powerful as Roy Jones Jr, but he chooses not to, doesn't mean he didn't have the capabilities to do so though".

    That's basically the extent of your argument LMFAO!

    We go buy actual feats shown, not what your or me think boxers are capable of doing in Disney-land.

    And that's primarily the reason why I can't consider Roy Jones Jr anything above rudimentary on the inside, because short-punching technique is one of the primary criteria.

    And given that we are comparing Roy Jones Jr to Artur Beterbiev, my point absolutely stands in everyway. Roy Jones Jr is less than rudimentary RELATIVE to the likes of Beterbiev, Lomachenko and etc. He is not even in the same league as far as punch-technique goes and the amount of damage he can inflict at close-quarters.

    Hence my conclusion, Artur Beterbiev crushes Roy Jones Jr in any fight resembling a freestyle 1vs1 hand to hand combat with no rules, or an MMA bout, or even a boxing bout with an extremely small-ring where both guys are forced to fight in the pocket and Roy Jones Jr has no chance of moving around.

    Also, most of the 'skills' you allude to about Roy Jones jr, are based on his physical gifts. You yourself admitted that he is a young fighter who is not designed to do well at an older age. But the true indicator of how skilled someone is, is based on how they do when their athleticism deteriorates. The reason why the likes of Lomachenko, Usyk and even Pacquiao are more skilled than Roy is because they can and are able to do well at an advanced age, because they have actual universally fundamental martial-arts skills of boxing to fall back on, even if they lose their speed, explosiveness and etc.

    Roy Jones Jr never bounced like Lomachenko, Pacquiao or Usyk. Why is that important you ask? Because it's one of the fundamental techniques and primary criteria for a boxer doing well against other martial-artists. It's funny how you went on a tangent about Roy Jones Jr having a better combination of power, speed and etc. compared to Lomachenko, Usyk, Pacquiao and etc and that therefore I was wrong about Roy Jones Jr not being able to do as well as them in MMA as he has all those attributes I've alluded them of having. Yet, here you are yourself admitting Roy Jones Jr lacking that primary attribute which they possess, that Roy Jones Jr has not shown to (pendulum step).

    Seriously, my 5 year old martial arts student understands this (the importance of such footwork) in combat on the first time of teaching. Assuming you're an adult with respectable intelligence, I really should not be needing to explain this more than once.
     
  9. Loudon

    Loudon VIP Member Full Member

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    Luis Fernando,

    I thought that I had.

    Please accept my sincerest apologies.

    You don’t even bother reading people’s posts properly. You initially completely embarrassed yourself by somehow confusing Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather. How is that even possible? I then said that despite your mistake, that Floyd was actually an excellent combination puncher, but in his EARLY CAREER where he had his PBF moniker.

    Look, I couldn’t give a damn as to what you think is acceptable or impressive. You’re only getting a response because I’ve got some free time on my hands. I haven’t cherry picked one fight at all. I’ve already told you that Roy fought off of the ropes many times in the latter stages of his prime. And I only chose the Lacy fight as one example, as I’d recently watched the fight. And how is throwing rapid fire combinations of double hooks and uppercuts etc, only deemed as being respectable competency? GTFO you fool. Go and list me other fighters who threw double body shots and double uppercuts off either hand whilst in-fighting at close quarters. You can’t.

    Well, if you’re half has smart as what you think you are, you would know that boxing has many different levels to it, and that each opponent presents a completely different stylistic challenge. He couldn’t in-fight with a guy like Joe, because Joe was an elite level buzz saw with great hand speed and insane stamina, whereas he was no longer a top level fighter at that point. He was completely out of his depth. He hadn’t been a top level fighter for 5 years at that point. Whereas against Lacy, Lacy was a completely static, D level punching bag who was tailor made for even a shot version of Roy. Once again, you HAVE moved the goal posts. At first, you said that Roy couldn’t and didn’t in-fight. I then proved to you that he could. You then said that you weren’t impressed by it, and you’re now focusing on fights where he didn’t in-fight. That is the very definition of moving the goal posts. You are now looking at fights where he didn’t in-fight, when there’s plenty of other footage available of where he did. Again, I don’t care if YOU think that Roy was rudimentary. You are a guy who mixed up Floyd and Roy, and a guy who’s made a complete fool of himself hating on Joe Frazier and Pernel Whittaker, saying that Pea had no offence, despite him throwing over 1000 punches. Your opinion doesn’t mean anything to me. Again, you’re only getting a response because I have some free time on my hands. So get back in your lane. You’re not some boxing guru.

    I’ve already agreed that he didn’t use that style. But in a different sport, with a different style, sure, he’d have had the capabilities to have done that. No, it’s not the same as your sarcastic analogy of Loma being faster and more powerful, not at all. You can change your style. But you cannot change your attributes in the same way. You can’t just suddenly significantly increase your power and speed.

    You’re not impressed by anything that Roy does. But again, your opinion holds no value. You’re a guy who’s labelled Pea as being trash. Yet, I’m supposed to respect what you think? No.

    In an extremely small ring, I’d agree with you.

    Not at all. Skills and style go hand in hand, but are very different things. Roy relied on his supreme athletic gifts. He had an unorthodox style where he counter punched based upon his reflexes. He fought with his hands low and leant back like Ali did. It was unconventional, and a style like that never ages well. But he was still unbelievably skilled. Once again, your punching technique, your timing and your accuracy is all skill based. Roy threw great combinations from a full repertoire, with pin point accuracy with perfect timing. That was down to skill, not just athleticism. He was one of the most skilled fighters of all time.

    Why are you obsessed with the pendulum step? Why are you implying that Roy just stood there static before exploding? He didn’t. Just because he didn’t bounce in the exact way that they did, he still moved his feet. Go and watch his fights. He still moved side to side, back and forth, circling and feinting, never being stood in the same position. Roy had great footwork. And if he’d have entered the world of MMA, although he wouldn’t have bounced like Manny and Loma, he’d still have been moving looking to utilise his great offence.

    Who do you think you’re talking to in this manner?

    I’ve never questioned the importance of footwork. Footwork is probably a boxer’s most important tool. I just said that Roy not possessing Loma’s bouncing footwork, would not mean that Roy would have been butchered in MMA. Why? Because he still had great footwork. How many times did he get hit flush in his 15 years at the top? That was due to his footwork. His footwork was great for both his offence and his defence. It was never static. It was always moving. It’s just that it was in a different style to the fighters who you’ve mentioned.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2022
  10. CleneloAnavarez

    CleneloAnavarez Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Fight wouldn't happen. Jones would duck Beterbiev.
     
  11. Ted Stickles

    Ted Stickles Boxing Addict Full Member

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    If Roy was in his prime we wouldn’t even be mentioning the other guys name.
     
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  12. CleneloAnavarez

    CleneloAnavarez Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Jones wouldn't have fought Beterbiev. He dropped his WBC belt instead of fighting Nunn.
     
  13. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    Logical Loudon applying Loudon logic again :lol:

    You should've been sectioned at birth you lunatic :lol:

    How comes that logic doesn't extend to Roid being enhanced by the roids?

    I've already explained that

    Yeah why don't we go through them all so you can waste my time and make me want to vomit as you reel off your litany of desperation fanboy excuses for the millionth time which you've devoted an entire lifetime to in order to convince the world that it was never Roy's fault and nothing ever is or was :facepalm:

    I've got a better idea. Why don't you reel off the names of all the KO artists and savage punchers he fought in his prime instead and explain away how he somehow managed to miss them all :lol:
     
  14. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    :risas3::facepalm:

    This content is protected
     
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  15. Loudon

    Loudon VIP Member Full Member

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    Why?