Prime Sonny Liston vs 1970's Muhammad Ali

Liston had been suffering from bursitis in his shoulders for close to a year and had been receiving cortisone shots. In training for the Clay fight, he re-injured his left shoulder and was supposedly in pain striking the heavy bag. He secretly resorted to heavy icing and ultrasound therapy after each training session. And, ironically, because of his dominance, Liston had actually logged little ring time in the past three years. Between March 1961 and the Clay fight, Liston had fought three times and won each bout with first-round knockouts—meaning that he had fought a total of just over six minutes during a 35-month stretch.

 

My money's on Sonny

 

His cornerman is at odds with recorded history, because Liston disclosed an injury to the boxing commission and asked for a postponement of the fight and was denied. It's also more than obvious as JT stated, that something was wrong with Liston's shoulder in the 6th round.

 

Excellent post. That's why I laugh when people try to make it out like Liston was still at his best when he fought Ali. Not that even a '59-60 Liston would've beaten a prime Ali.

 

They wouldn't have been winnable if he was this heartless bully who fails at the first taste of adversity as many here depict him as. If it were even close to true, he would've quit against Williams after he broke his nose, Valdez after he shut his eye, etc.

I agree he deserves flak for quitting against Ali, but I don't agree that his entire career as well as his H2H ability, should be defined by one bout when he was in his mid-30s at the youngest, injured going into the bout, and had only 5 minutes of ring action in 3 years.

 

Sure, I can subscribe to that. I'm not suggesting there was any genuine funny business going on. Nothing pre-planned or anything of that nature.
Where I'm drawing the line is that if there was an injury (If) it didn't happen in the first round as he said.
A torn rotator cuff or dislocated shoulder is usually bad enough that the person cannot move the arm at all.

 

Could you please provide your source for this?

 

I've never heard that he asked for a postponement. Do you have a source on that?

 

I'm not suggesting his entire career be defined by one bout.
This is what my position is, to clear up confusion:
He took some lumps, like any fighter. A bruised eye is par for the course in boxing. It happens in so many fights. Broken noses too are not that uncommon. Even speaking from personal experience I can tell you that because of the adrenaline, you're sometimes not even aware of a broken nose. And also, not all nose breaks are very painful.
So, these rather mundane injuries aren't a yardstick to determine heart or toughness. This is boxing after all.

What I AM suggesting is that Liston didn't fancy it against Ali, who was proving to be more than a little bothersome.
Ali was utterly unafraid, just as big, and leagues faster than Liston.
What partially paid big dividends in the past (Size, aura) was not a factor at all against Ali.
The injury itself leaves room for reasonable doubt. You can't fight like he did with a dislocated shoulder.
Given also his highly questionable antics in the second fight, and his dubious dealings with the underworld which isn't a secret, I'd say Liston is not a man who is full of integrity and honesty.
So for me, the first fight was a quit job. And likely the second fight too.

 

Ok, I don't think there's anything like that in Remnick's book. That he had experienced soreness, yes, but not that he had asked for a postponement.

But an operation isn't mentioned anywhere, is it?

 

There's heaps in the Wiki article for the fight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Sonny_Liston

 

I can go along with that. He may have had concerns coming but but i don't think they affected him until late. I'd also agree he was never going to win on that night injury, no injury or anything in between.