Prime Sonny Liston vs 1970's Muhammad Ali

Ali is too much once again, Liston was not intelligent enough to beat Ali with his skill set at any point up until his great decline.

 

Aside from those mentioned by @Stiches Yarn, their were also other places, I've read online that had this information. I feel like a FOIA request would help us the most in this matter.

 

Their's a difference between a mere bruised eye which is rather common, and one clamped nearly entirely shut, impeding your vision.
Broken noses too are not that uncommon. Even speaking from personal experience I can tell you that because of the adrenaline, you're sometimes not even aware of a broken nose. [/QUOTE]
Liston had to have known something was wrong, considering he had to start breathing through his mouth.

I'm sure Liston would disagree you considering, he spoke at length about how Williams hit the hardest out of anyone he faced, and thought he was going to get knocked out at one point. Sounds like he endured some serious punishment, and footage of the fight confirms this.

I disagree that a broken nose, and especially a broken jaw are "rather mundane". Liston proved his heart plenty. As I stated, if he was this man who quit at the first sign of adversity, like you seem to be depicting him as, he would've quit against Williams after being hit with those powerful shots.

"Williams hit Liston with a left hook that would have finished any other man" Gross remembered. "It would have torn some fighters hears off. Liston just blinked and came right back."

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54152307/fort-lauderdale-news/

Also people who lack heart, aren't known for giving rematches to guys that hit them the hardest they've ever been hit, and by their own admission nearly knocked them out.

Again, he did not quit because he didn't "fancy it" against Ali. He quit because he had a recorded shoulder injury going into the bout which progressively got worse round after round.

Against the aforementioned bangers I mentioned in Dejohn, Valdez, and Williams, Size did not pay "big dividends". As a matter of fact, Liston dwarfed in comparison to them. As a matter of fact, when Dejohn was on his knees, Liston did not even realize he was down and threw a punch and said the following.
" Yes, I uppercutted him all right, but I didn't know he had a knee on the floor. I thought he was just squattin' like he did a couple of times earlier. I'm sorry about it but he's so tall, I didn't realize he had a knee down."

As a matter of fact, Liston never lost to a fighter above 210 pounds. It seemed to be the smaller fighters (Machen, Whitehurst, etc) who troubled him. Even in his last fight, where he was in his 40s, and beyond shot, he dominated the 6'5" 230 pound Wepner, and gave him the worst beating of his life.

As I said, their's no doubt his shoulder was injured. To what extent we may never know. But the facts are, that he went into the bout with a shoulder injury, unsuccessfully attempted to have it postponed, and 8 doctors testified to the severity of the injury, citing it would've impeded his ability to defend himself.

It was also more than obvious something was wrong in his shoulder if you see the 6th round of their fight.

I agree he took a dive in the second fight. I don't even buy the KD let alone the KO.

 

That's also untrue. He was dead even on the scorecards and both hurt Ali, and had him out on his feet, by Ali's own admission.

 

Ali being blind for a round has something to do with that. A deliberate act by Liston's corner according to his cornerman,

 

His cornerman Pollino claimed it was intentional and had been before, against Machen for example. It's in Remnick's book.

 

And I've never heard that he was operated on, which he would be for something like that.

 

This is what I can find about the injury beforehand "he also noted that there was little doubt that Liston went into the fight with a sore or lame shoulder".

 

I'm a bit skeptical as if I remember correctly, it was a third person account of Pollino's alledged quote. Also, a mobster isn't exactly the most reliable person. Their's absolutely nothing to cooborate his claim. Even Ali and Dundee have both said, they don't believe their was any wrongdoing on Liston's part.

As for Machen, not a peep came out of his mouth regarding the incident until 4 years later, right after the Ali bout. He said absolutely nothing prior. The film does not support the theory that Machen was blinded at any point in his bout with Liston.

If I remember correctly, the book also claimed Cleveland Williams was blinded when he had the upper hand against Liston, which like the Machen bout, is refuted by even a cursory look at their two bouts. Nowhere on film, does The Big Cat appear to have any vision issues. Also, Liston, and Williams were very good friends. Had Sonny indeed blinded Cleveland, that friendship would've almost certainly ended instantly. But it didn't. As a matter of fact, when The Big Cat was shot by the police, and fighting for his life, it was Liston who came and visited him. Source:https://www.boxingoverbroadway.com/wp-content/uploads/Liston-Benbow-Williams.jpg

 

They really only operate after multiple dislocations. After a few months or rest and rehab the shoulder is often good to go.

 

Speaking of this subject, I have a question if you don't mind. It's a bit personal. I've often noticed during runs, my shoulders start to hurt quite a bit for some reason. This develops into excruciating pain after rocking my nephew to sleep. This has been going on for months and has forced me to put down the jump rope. Is it time to see a doctor do you think?

 

I would, or a physio mate.

 

Pollino told a reporter, named by Remnick but don't remember the name, who told Remnick. Pollino wasn't a mobster, I think, but most of what is known from Liston's camp came from mobsters or people associated with them, so this is as reliable as anything else, I'd say.

Anyhow, it's a bit silly to make a point about how Liston hurt Ali, since he only could when Ali was couldn't see. The main take away from that isn't that he hurt Ali, but that he couldn't put him away when he had him blind.